Another point to the argument over if athletes are getting better

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BitPlayerVesti, Aug 6, 2018.


  1. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/may/02/athletics.comment1

    PLEASE READ THIS AS MY COMMENTS FOLLOW ON FROM INFORMATION IN IT

    People often bring up improving records to claim earlier boxers are worse. However they use measured sports. Often the point of changing equipment is brought up, this is another issue entirely however. The athletics of the late 1800's and early 1900's were held back by the dogma of amateurism, which seems to have largely been to exclude the poorer athletes, who then as now, were better than rich hobbyists. Various athletes got banned over accusations of professionalism. This changed as the Olympics, and these sports, abandoned the dubious ideal of amateurism, as it turned more and more into nationalist pride, and borderline warfare by proxy. The Kenyan runners then smashed tons of records by taking dedication to a whole different level. Living in training camps at altitude. This is a big part of the story of improvement, but boxing was not part of it. Boxing never suffered the dogma of amateurism, that prevented more dedicated training.

    I know this is a tangent, but I find it interesting, and hopefully you did too.
     
  2. Webbiano

    Webbiano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'm sure janitor posted a video of a modern day sprinter using the spikes that Jesse Owen would have been using and a similar type of track that he would been running on. Think he clocked in just under 11 seconds.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    A couple of observations.

    Running was a huge sport in the 19th century, in every distance from sprint, to what we today call ultra marathons.

    There are some very impressive records claimed, over all distances for that period, but the proof is not great in some cases.

    The Amateur Athletics Rules had a very profound effect, and not for the better.

    If you took any money for a sport. you were barred from all athletics events.

    If a man took one professional boxing match to pay a bill, then he could no longer participate in athletic events!

    This basically skewed the sport in favor of people with private means, and eliminated a lot of the talent pool!

    Most of the best talent was going to waste.
     
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  4. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    It's not even just the talent pool. With identical tallent, 99% of the time the man running to feed his family will run way faster than the guy with a job running for a hobby. Almost no one can handle the type of training it takes to be the best, with the extra stress etc. of working a day job, and without the incentive it being their job. And even the ones with the freakish willingness, may still just lack that edge come the event, to nearly kill themselves to win. The most obvious examples, however, are a lot of times they stopped people competing for being too professional. The death of this way of thinking is oddly unspoken of in this argument

    If people really were running 3:58 Miles, and sub 58m 12mile runs in the 1700's, the Amateur Athetic rules never just made things worse, they nmessed it up massively. The spanner is, that while there are professional records from around the 1800's, and while they are consistently better, they don't seem to be on the level of the 1700's. Honestly I find it pretty hard to explain. Even if the 1700's records weren't legit, it seems weird they so suddenly became legit (and far less impressive), in the early 1800's. Supposedly, the records had to be run on tracks, so if the professionals generally weren't, it's possible some more impressive times were unrecorded, or for another reason. Certainly seems like a topic that needs more research IMO.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  5. OvidsExile

    OvidsExile At a minimum, a huckleberry over your persimmon. Full Member

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    But not in boxing. Boxing was prize fighting. And like you said not in ultra marathons. I've seen records of guys like George Littlewood speed walking 623 miles in six day races. The record stood for 96 years until it was beaten by an Australian named Yiannis Kouros. Where ultramarathon runners are concerned I think there was a lot of gambling that funded the sport, like Around the World in 80 Days. A guy would claim he could run across France or across Europe in X days, put up some money with the help of backers and would take bets for and against him. Mensen Ernst ran from Paris to Moscow averaging 120 miles a day for fourteen days. Also, horse racing was professional too. Isaac Murphy and Fred Archer won hundreds of horse races.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
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  6. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think boxing is different. I think it has gone down because in boxing there was no set organization which made it required to fight everyone, which then leads to a great fighter standing at the end since he had to survive the system of a great boxing era. And this only happened with great amateur fighters moving up ,and even if guys were not great amatuers, they learned from those guys having to fight them. Many other sports they improve by seeing the levels of one era and then upping the level. But Mikey Garcia winning 4 titles this early, when Hearns and Duran and guys like that won 4 at the end of their careers pretty much ( or the end of their prime careers) is an indications boxing is watered down with organizations and fighters who should not be holding titles.
     
  7. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Great article that illuminates an inherent bias against our predecessors when it comes to athletics.

    Another great example is to just watch Pele highlights.
    A man who did every skill and trick modern players use, without the benefit of highlights and endless film catalogues.

    This content is protected


    I think the individual is more important than the tools available to him/her.
     
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