Why I think GGG is a top 15 all-time middleweight.

GGG is world champion with many belts, AND the top pound for pound rating. Being Undisputed means you get a chance to fight everyone.

No buts and maybe's Don King's organized middle weight event vs non hall of fame opponents, except for Hopkins allowed him to be undisputed. By contrast, Martinez did not want to fight GGG, and neither did Cotto. Canelo punted on the fight, waiting for GGG to age, and got a gift draw. If a Promoter like Don King had control over Martines, Cotto and Canelo, he can force them to fight GGG whenever he chooses.

A non contest does not count as a tittle defense. There was " no contest " If showing up is all you need, does a fighter get a title defense when his opponents pulls out with an injury too? Of Course not.

Are you prepared to be honest when exploring it is my question? We will start with Monzon.

Monzon had numerous losses and draws to journeyman like opponents! First just in case you or the readers are unaware, Monzon had a 73-6-8 amateur record. He was hardly green. He was polished. Yet he lost three times and drew nine times. To compound the problems, Monzon didn't exactly lose and draw to A list names. Often they were journeyman! For example he lost to a 2-0 opponent when he had 18 pro fights under his belt!. You mission, which is impossible is to tell me the fighters he drew or lost with were better than GGG's opponents. I'll keep an open mind to explore your answers.

Secondarily, we can focus on the age and weight of Monzon's opponents, which were often MUCH lighter on fight night and sometimes past their prime.

Just to be clear, I think Monzon belong in the top 10 of all time at middle, though I do think he's over valued.

 

Wait you said you wanted to explore how boxers that drew or beat Monzon were blelow the class that GGG beat.

I’ll post the names, their records when they fought Monzon, and their accomplishments in boxing, then the onus is on you to tell us how they were better than say most of Golovkin’s title opponents.

Do we have a deal?

 

You see I will give you credit when you research and say my bad.

 

Man_Machine,

Okay, I'll use your own questions since you won't reply to mine. And since these are your own questions, I expect you to reply back.

To clarify, you are asking:

Thanks, we are on. I hope the readers will pick up a few things from both if us. If I make a small mistake, let me know. I'll start with Monzon. As I explained Monzon was hardly a green amateur. He has accomplished amateur boxer with a with a known record of 73-6-8! His first amateur fight was 1959. An important baseline to establish in case you attempt to say he was green in his boxing career. Monzon turned pro in 1963.

I will list the numerous Losses and Draws that Mozon had naming the fighters, examining their records, showing you to none of them were ranked in the top ten, and more, then compare them to some of the more accomplished fighters GGG beat, proving that Monzon lost to or struggled with lesser fighters than GGG beat.

By the very definition a loss or draw is a struggle. However, you can win and also struggle, but for the purpose of time today, I'll only focus on the losses and draws for Monzon. I will continue this thread later with more of the draws, so be prepared to answer back to them later.

First up the losses

1 ) Loss to Antonio Aguilar, who is best described as a good journeyman. Aguilar could not punch at all, and ended up with a record of 79-18-11 with just 15KO's. He was also stopped 8 times. He did not fight in the USA, and was Never ranked in ring Magazine's annual top ten at middle weight. Aguilar was only one year older than Monzon, essentially the same age. It is likely Aguilar has less amateur experience. Mozon lost a decision in 10 rounds.

2 ) Loss to Felipe Cambeiro. Cambeiro ended up 41-16-4. He was a good journeyman who was untested outside of South America, and had a lot of fluff on his record. He did manage to Beat Monzon, then 11-1 in the year 1964. Judging by the timelines, Cambeiro was on the downside of his career. By 1965 he only won 1 of six fights. That's it. And the guy he beat was 2-2-1. Camberiro retired in 1966. Monzon did avenge the loss, but
Camberio was past his best when that happened.

3) Loss to Alberto Massi. This loss is pretty bad when you consider Massi only had two pro fights under his belt! Monzon by contrast had 17 pro fights under his belt. After beating Monzon, Massi was knocked out 3 fights later and 5 fights later. His ring record is a losing one. 22-28-7. He was stopped ten times! Never ranked. Monzon did not avenge this very bad loss which went 10 rounds.


Draws, and there are a lot of them. I'll stop at 4 struggles for Monzon ( there are a lot more ) for now.

1 ) Celedonio Lima. ring record 19-3-6. However his opponents record is pure garbage. Why do I say this. Only 3 0f the 19 opponents he beat had winning records. Lima feasted on no names and bottom shelf tomatoes cans. As such a draw here is a terrible black mark on anyone's record. Monzon had more pro fights under his belt than Lima did when this fight happened. Yet they drew in 10 rounds.

Now, are you going to tell me that these above fighters are better the follow fighters GGG beat, and for now I have no need to list some of GGG's top wins!

It is my firm belief that all of the above losses and draws on Monzon's resumes were vs. lesser fighters than GGG beat. I'll list three mid level GGG wins, and show you they were better in ring record, and accomplishment.

1 Grzegorz Proksa. A European middle weight belt holder, 29-4, only stopped twice, once by GGG.

2 ) Daniel Geale. Ranked in the top ten, something none of Monzon listed losses or draws to current were not. Champion of the IBF, winner vs name fighters such as Strum ( ranked as high as two, an not for just one year! WBA and IBF world title holder ) Mundine, and Sylester?

3 ) Martin Murray. 37-4-1. Only stopped By GGG. Top ten opponent, WBA, and WBC belt holder.

 

Ugh. First off I respect Machine_Man. He too thinks GGG is a top 15 ATG at middleweight. To be an active fighter and also among the 15 best in history in a historical deep division means something. I look forward to his replies, as I used his own questions, and clearly laid out a case to prove my point.

Now to address the nonsense. Canleo was tested positive for PED's. This meant GGG had to quickly find another opponent. Some top ten opponents such as Gary O'Sullivan turned GGG down. GGG had to settle for Vanes, who was a known fighter and ended up blowing him out in a specular fashion. If Monzon had a knockout like that, I have not seen it on film.

As for dropping belts, if you have 20 title defenses, and sometimes have issues negotiation with your opponents, as GGG does, politics can intervene. In other words, if Canleo tests clean, there is no belt drop.

In Golvkin's case, opponents have avoided him, not the other way around.

To use a more famous example, Lennox Lewis dropped belts to Chris Byrd, and John Ruiz, to fight a lesser accomplished fighter in Mike Grant, and a shot Mike Tyson by design. Is that one good enough for you? Champions who hold more than one belt are stripped. It's a common occurrence, and usually, the reasons have a lot to do with money and alphabet politics, not the ability or lack there of the opponents.

I do think Dervanchenko is a good fighter, and GGG might meet him someday, but to say he's ducking him is pretty silly, even by your standards. I suggest you ask CST80 for boxing history lessons again. Or you can ask me and I will give you two pointers.