How does Tony Zale do against the murderers row?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Aug 7, 2018.


  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Graziano a no brainer over Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Jake Lamotta who were all higher rated than graziano? And much better?

    Oh wait, graziano was the “draw”...because the New York ring hyped up their golden boy to the racist American public because he knocked out a few overstuffed lightweights or well past their prime fighters.

    But now your logic is doesn’t matter if he wasn’t number 1 rated as long as he was a good draw?

    In that case, you can’t criticize Lesnevich for fighting mills instead of Ezzard Charles since mills drew much better
     
  2. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    Tell us why is that? Why didn't Zale fight any black fighters fighters after losing to Bolden? Please tell us why?
     
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  3. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Zale probably just did what his manager told him to. How much $?
     
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  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Exactly. These men may have been good enough to be champion just like so many others always are, but these are the only guys who have benefited from a real renaissance. The “murderers row” is partly a revisionist view of that time.

    you could argue Dempsey would likely make as much money fighting Wills as he did Tunney. This is not the case with Zale or Lesnevich. They would make far more money against #3 rated contenders than the #1 contender. It’s completely different.

    There was no colour line though. But there is a financial line isn’t there? You could be putting colour into this when it is largely only about the colour green.

    Joe Louis and Ray Robinson were doing just fine. What is your explanation for those two?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
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  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Precisely. Money.
     
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  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    By not defending against black challengers.
     
  7. Cecil

    Cecil Boxing Addict Full Member

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    What seems to be forgotten here as well Mac is that rated or not Harvey and McAvoy were way past their prime.
    Harvey was well nigh finished he never had another fight, MvAvoy only had a few more, their primes were probably 10 years before.
    In fact in their primes even as middleweights I’d give them both a shot at beating Mills.
     
  8. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Of course there was a color line at the time. Just because two guys got past it doesn't mean many others didn't have to contend with it.

    It's gained weight in subsequent years because time has changed views and perceptions. It was hardly going to be made into a huge deal at that time.
     
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  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    So would I, and Mills only beat McAvoy on a back injury.
     
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Joe Louis defended against Walcott and John Henry Lewis.

    Robinson fought Kid Gavilán and Randy Turpin.

    When the money was right the fights were worth making.
     
  11. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    This question has still been sidestepped
     
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I firmly believe Zale and his manager wanted to hold on to his title as long as possible and avoided the best fighters out there so he could hold on to his title. I think like other white champions of the era he specifically fought white fighters because they drew much better and because it was far less risk to fight a white fighter he knew he could beat than Charley Burley who didn’t draw well but was an incredible fighter. Zales manager essentially hid him behind the color line.

    I do believe Zale was a great head to head fighter at his best but he had limitations and could be outslicked and outboxed and the top middleweights of the era were mostly ATG counterpunchers. Zale picked and choosed come forward brawlers who were tailor made for him and stayed away from burleys, Moore’s, Charles, and Williams

    How great was Zale? We will never know because he never defeated the truly great middleweights of his era. We just don’t know
     
  13. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    Very nice response and I like it. Dont agree but your opinion. Thing is a few of your other posts seem to strongly imply it was for a different reason. But I'll leave it at that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
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  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    There is no doubt zale proved himself capable of ATG performances. His win against Abrams was legendary material against a very good fighter. Abrams called zale the best body puncher of all time. It’s just a shame zale wasted some title defenses on men like Mamakos, Pryor, when he could have squeezed Burley and H Williams or Charles in there and we really could have seen how great zale was, or at least fought Burley, H Williams or Lamotta in 46 in his comeback. I personally think graziano was a joke, an overhyped New York fighter who built his reputation on set ups and smaller men. Zale in his prime destroys graziano in 1. Lamotta, Burley, Williams easily beat graziano.

    Burley vs Zale would have been the ultimate opposite styles clash. The fans missed out.
     
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Zale was actually the real deal as far as ability goes...Lesnevich on the other hand, that guy was a paper champion buffoon. His duck of Ezzard Charles was cowardly and shameless. He should have relinquished the title if he knew he couldn’t beat Ezz. Thankfully, Ezz kicked his ass 3 years later and retired him.

    Do you know Ezzard Charles fought and won 3 title eliminators to get a shot at Lesnevich including a knockout win over a prime Archie Moore!

    Never got a title shot