How does Tony Zale do against the murderers row?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Aug 7, 2018.


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  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    But it was a depleted top ten. The World was in limbo. The top ten was in limbo. Champions and fans were drafted. All that was left was the men who were not serving their country.

    if the hype around Graziano did not stand up nobody would have came to see him fight. The guy was box office dynamite. The fans got good value when he fought. I don’t think Rocky was ever in a bad fight. Didn’t they charge extra at Stillmans when Rocky was sparring?

    or he overshone them.

    Graziano was one of the most exciting fighters of all time. He was called “the most colourful middleweight since Ketchel” by the press.

    Those fights were sensational. The truth is that demand for Zale vs Graziano fights far overshadowed zale vs anybody else.
     
    choklab, Aug 13, 2018
    choklab, Aug 13, 2018
    #151
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  2. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    quack quack quack!
     
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    #152
  3. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I wouldn't call Graziano a buffon, but I'm not sure he ever beat a ranked MW other than Zale. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's how it looks to me at a glance.
     
    Bokaj, Aug 13, 2018
    Bokaj, Aug 13, 2018
    #153
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  4. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    No he didn’t. Which astonishes me Edward would give so much credit to graziano for beating welterweights to earn a shot at the MIDDLEWEIGHT title

    Here are the 160 ring ratings 1944-1946

    1944

    Tony Zale*, Champion

    1. Holman Williams
    2. Jake LaMotta
    3. Charley Burley
    4. Jose Basora
    5. Joe E Carter
    6. Vince Hawkins
    7. Cocoa Kid
    8. Coley Welch
    9. Jack Chase
    10. Vic Dellicurti

    1945

    Tony Zale, Champion

    1. Holman Williams
    2. Charley Burley
    3. Jake LaMotta
    4. Rocky Graziano
    5. Marcel Cerdan
    6. Bee Bee Washington
    7. Aaron (Tiger) Wade
    8. George (Wildcat) Henry
    9. Jimmy Edgar
    10. Bert Lytell
    1946

    Tony Zale, Champion

    1. Jake LaMotta
    2. Charley Burley
    3. Rocky Graziano
    4. Marcel Cerdan
    5. Georgie Abrams
    6. Steve Belloise
    7. Jimmy Edgar
    8. Bert Lytell
    9. Sam Baroudi
    10. Al (Red) Priest



    I don’t see one name on here that graziano beat



    It gets worse...

    Here are the listed weights for the ranked men graziano did beat

    Servo 144
    Cochrane 142 and 145
    Green 150
    Davis 146


    Talk about a fighter being protected and his ranking manufactured..


    Who did graziano beat to justify a title shot at 160?


    Going through that list Burley defeated Carter, Williams, Basora, Kid, Chase, Wade, Lytell

    That’s 7 ranked 160s Burley defeated to 0 for graziano!
     
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    #154
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  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    “Lamotta Feared no man. And without a mobbed up manager to maneuver and protect him, he came up harder than most, with a reputation built on those high risk, low reward killers that gave champions the heebie jeebies. Unlike other white prospects who were fed a steady diet of low cal cream puffs, Lamotta would stand eye to eye with boxings ferocious black underclass.” - Murderers Row Springs Toledo

    “A colored fighter would starve in those days....a lot of them would have to fight with handcuffs on just to get a pay night here and here, and some of them were great...believe me. Great enough to chase high priced top notchers right out of the ring. When one of those bombers got a chance against a white kid on the square, they sure tried their best to show what they could do, because they all had a dream that maybe they’d get enough of an audience clamoring for them so that someday some promoter would give them a chance they deserved and they’d get a shot at the real money. And I mean they were really hungry fighters...”- Jake Lamotta

    And wait for it...


    “Lamotta was Graziano’s policeman. Rocky liked to use the tag with Lamotta because Lamotta was knocking off guys he would like to give a miss too. Rocky called Lamotta a policeman long before he won the championship because he didn’t want to be eliminated before he won the title.”- Murderers Row Springs Toledo
     
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    #155
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  6. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "Many people . . . rank Burley above Zale." "Why is that."

    Their honest opinion. But did the folks who were actually there at the time feel this way?

    "Why shouldn't the middleweight champion of the era be held accountable for Burley never receiving a title shot?"

    Because he was in the service. This amounts to saying it was more important to fight Charley Burley than to fight Adolph Hitler. Did folks back in the 1940's feel that way.

    Zale deserves praise not criticism for what he did from 1942 to 1945. You should restrict your criticism of Zale to 1946 only regarding Burley or Williams.

    But just on Burley, when was he ever the #1 contender in any division he was active in?

    Here are his year by year end of the year ratings:

    1938---welter #3
    1939---welter #5
    1940---welter #3
    1941---welter #5
    1942---middle #2
    1943---unrated
    1944---middle #3
    1945---middle #2
    1946---middle #2

    A good run and he could have been champion perhaps at either welter or middle or both, but also he was never in fact the outstanding contender at the end of the year. Williams was in 1945 after beating Burley, and LaMotta was viewed as such at the end of 1946.

    In 1947 Burley drops from the ratings.
     
    edward morbius, Aug 13, 2018
    edward morbius, Aug 13, 2018
    #156
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  7. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Why not LaMotta? He and Burley and Williams were at the top of the active middleweight division from 1943 to 1945 and LaMotta manages numerous fights with welters-5 against Robinson, 4 against Zivic, also Jackie Wilson and Tommy Bell. Good fighters but much smaller. Somehow he can't work in Burley or Williams or Archie Moore. Williams and Burley fought each other 7 times up to 1945. LaMotta doesn't fight either of them until after the war in 1946 when he fights a Williams who is noticeably slipping, having already lost to Lytell and Cerdan, and about to lose a few months later to Jean Walzack. Appears to me Jake picked his spots.

    Joey Maxim fought them all. Jake was more selective, I think. And when he did fight a top guy his own size, like Marshall, he lost badly.
     
    edward morbius, Aug 13, 2018
    edward morbius, Aug 13, 2018
    #157
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  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Your making a big deal about burleys lack of "number 1" rating in the yearly end ratings, yet graziano never came close to achieving number 1 status at 160 in yearly end ratings.


    Here are the 160 ring ratings 1944-1946

    1944

    Tony Zale*, Champion

    1. Holman Williams
    2. Jake LaMotta
    3. Charley Burley
    4. Jose Basora
    5. Joe E Carter
    6. Vince Hawkins
    7. Cocoa Kid
    8. Coley Welch
    9. Jack Chase
    10. Vic Dellicurti

    1945

    Tony Zale, Champion

    1. Holman Williams
    2. Charley Burley
    3. Jake LaMotta
    4. Rocky Graziano
    5. Marcel Cerdan
    6. Bee Bee Washington
    7. Aaron (Tiger) Wade
    8. George (Wildcat) Henry
    9. Jimmy Edgar
    10. Bert Lytell
    1946

    Tony Zale, Champion

    1. Jake LaMotta
    2. Charley Burley
    3. Rocky Graziano
    4. Marcel Cerdan
    5. Georgie Abrams
    6. Steve Belloise
    7. Jimmy Edgar
    8. Bert Lytell
    9. Sam Baroudi
    10. Al (Red) Priest



    I don’t see one name on here that graziano beat



    It gets worse...

    Here are the listed weights for the ranked men graziano did beat

    Servo 144
    Cochrane 142 and 145
    Green 150
    Davis 146


    Talk about a fighter being protected and his ranking manufactured..


    Who did graziano beat to justify a title shot at 160?

    Going through that list Burley defeated Carter, Williams, Basora, Kid, Chase, Wade, Lytell

    That’s 7 ranked 160s Burley defeated to 0 for graziano!
     
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    #158
    Bokaj likes this.
  9. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Lamotta fought Lytell, Marshall, Williams....name me another white middleweight of the era who fought more black murders row members?

    What about Graziano? Whom from the murderers row did he fight? Who did he ever beat that was a full sized ranked middleweight?


    “Lamotta Feared no man. And without a mobbed up manager to maneuver and protect him, he came up harder than most, with a reputation built on those high risk, low reward killers that gave champions the heebie jeebies. Unlike other white prospects who were fed a steady diet of low cal cream puffs, Lamotta would stand eye to eye with boxings ferocious black underclass.” - Murderers Row Springs Toledo




    “Lamotta was Graziano’s policeman. Rocky liked to use the tag with Lamotta because Lamotta was knocking off guys he would like to give a miss too. Rocky called Lamotta a policeman long before he won the championship because he didn’t want to be eliminated before he won the title.”- Murderers Row Springs Toledo
     
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    #159
    Bokaj likes this.
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    What Graziano did was the definition of picking his spots. Name me a 160 Graziano fought before his title shot that was as good as Lloyd Marshall Holman Williams or Bert Lytell?
     
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    #160
  11. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    Springs Toledo said it so it must be true?
     
    robert ungurean, Aug 13, 2018
    robert ungurean, Aug 13, 2018
    #161
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    So you feel like Graziano fought the better 160s than lamotta? Than Burley?

    Burley defeated 7 ranked middleweights 1944-1946. Graziano defeated 0.
     
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    #162
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Eddie Futch said Charley Burley was the best fighter he ever saw. Do you value his opinion?

    Yet we have a couple posters here making claims Graziano deserved a title shot as much as Burley
     
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    #163
  14. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Loyal Member Full Member

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    Shorty Hogue fought Moore, Marshall, Booker, and Burley, most of them multiple times, and picked up some wins and draws along with the losses. Hogue beat all of them except Burley at some point, and nobody today gives a crap about him.

    What LaMotta gets all the credit for- fighting the murderers row without being a diva about it- Hogue did more often and with no fanfare.
     
    Rock0052, Aug 13, 2018
    Rock0052, Aug 13, 2018
    #164
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  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Soose gets a title shot in 1941 over the man who spanked him

    May 6th 1941 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette}. In just 4 years as a pro, white fighter Billy Soose has earned his title shot against fellow white fighter Ken Overlin as there are enough good stuff on his record. Burley beat Soose (WUD 10) and looked so good Soose was lucky to last past 5rounds.
    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...jsNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=NmoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1852,4019192
     
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Aug 13, 2018
    #165
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