How does Tony Zale do against the murderers row?

"Detroit, and won a very clear decision. The decision was booed by the crowd."

Perhaps the fight was not as "clear" as the official scorecards would have it. This brings up the issue of Detroit and LaMotta. Here is Jake's record in Detroit fights:

1-----Jimmy Edgar (W-SD)
2-----Charley Hayes (KO)
3-----Sugar Ray Robinson (W-UD)
4-----Sugar Ray Robinson (L-UD)
5-----Jimmy Reeves (W)--(after losing twice to Reeves in other venues)
6-----Jose Basora (W)--(after a loss & draw to Basora in other venues)
7-----Fritzie Zivic (W-UD)--(after going 2-1 in SD's with Zivic in other venues)
8-----Ossie Harris (W)
9-----Ossie Harris (W)
10----George Kochran (W)
11----George Kochran (W)
12----Jimmy Edgar (D)
13----Holman Williams (W-UD)
14----O'Neill Bell (KO)
15----O'Neill Bell (KO)
16----Marcel Cerdan (KO)
17----Dick Wagner (KO)
18----Laurent Dauthuille (KO) (the 15th round rally)
19----Gene Hairston (D)
20----Norman Hayes (W)
21----Gene Hairston (W)
22----Bob Murphy (W)

LaMotta went 19-1-2 at Detroit, with

A---His win over Robinson. He lost all four fights with SRR at other venues.
B---His win over Cerdan to win the title.
C---His decisive win over Zivic after fighting on even terms in three fights at other venues.
D---His win over Williams.
E---His comeback win over Dauthuille
F---His win over Murphy, his only really impressive win over a "big" man. Murphy had stopped Jake in NYC a year earlier.

So LaMotta was 19-1-2 at Detroit, with victories in 86% of his fights.
At other venues LaMotta was 64-18-2, with victories in 76% of his fights.
Lamotta's won-lost percentage at Detroit, 19 of 20, was 95%.
LaMotta's won-lost percentage at other venues, 64 of 82, was 78%.

Just something I noticed. Almost all of LaMotta's rep rests on what he did at Detroit. He beat Robinson there, he won his title there, he beat Murphy and Williams there, etc. If the Detroit fights were removed from his record he would be little more than an average 1940's fighter, winning some and losing some against the field.

I have no inside info, but I think this is food for thought and questions.

*Jake's supporters will mention that he might have done better with Reeves, Basora, and Zivic because he was improving. That is possible.

 

"Who cares if Williams wasn't a puncher. He had the ability to shut out both Zale and Graziano with sublime boxing skills."

At his best, perhaps. But in 1946? Williams from 1946 on went 10-10-1, losing to all sorts of guys like Jean Walzack. He was slipping.

Zale? Pure guesswork how any version of Williams would have done with the body punching Zale. Also pure guesswork concerning which man had slipped more, but Zale does look good on film against Graziano as late as 1948.

Graziano? Almost everyone could out-slick and outbox Rocky, but could an aging Williams last? Again, guesswork.

 

By 1935 the Purple Gang was basically disbanded and their influence eroded .I can't see even a tenuous connection between a defunct Jewish mob and a 1940s ' Italian /Americanboxer.

 

"When did Graziano ever prove himself the top middeweight contender?"

He never did, but he might have been the #1 rated contender in September of 1946. I would still like to know.

But in fairness, none of the others did either. Burley lost to Williams in 1945. Williams lost to Lytell and Cerdan and LaMotta in 1946. LaMotta drew with Edgar in 1946. Cerdan and Abrams were also in the hunt.

Frankly, you can make a case for several men.

That is why Abe Greene proposed the elimination series, Cerdan and Abrams, Burley and LaMotta, with the winners to meet and establish an obvious #1 contender.

But LaMotta ducked Burley, then blew a fight and his top dog rep to the mediocre Hudson. Until making a deal with the Mafia bailed him out.

Graziano at least won fights to get to a title fight. LaMotta admitted he got in tight with the big boys by tossing a fight to Fox which led to him getting a title shot over a more highly rated contender.

 

Graziano won fights ,but in what weight division were his opponents?

 

Fair enough, but beating a welter champ is a little more on the up and up than dumping a fight to earn a title shot.

 

Jake LaMotta had a Jewish mother.

"defunct"

Not entirely, and being both Jewish and Italian might have given Jake an "in" with both sides of Detroit's underworld.

 

Guys can be misquoted, but let's assume that Graziano definitely said this. It is still just talk. Does anything in the record indicate it is true.

Whom did LaMotta beat to eliminate a threat to Graziano?

Burley? LaMotta ducked him.

Williams? Lytell and Cerdan had already beaten him.

Lytell? LaMotta did beat a green version in 1945, a year in which Lytell lost 6 fights. But after Lytell turned it around and beat Williams and Burley and moved to the top of the ratings, Jake was nowhere to be found, hiding in the same hole he hid in to avoid Burley.

Abrams? Cerdan eliminated him.

Cerdan? No, Jake didn't fight him until he was the champion and getting old.

Belloise? No. Jake never fought him.

I would like to know the names of the fighters Jake eliminated for Graziano?

Now I am defending Graziano here because being called a "joke" and a "buffoon" is so over-the-top that someone should take his side, but he was a New York guy with the right connections which cleared his way to a title shot, just like Jake. Only thing, Graziano always seemed a bit more honest about it all than LaMotta. When in an interview the moderator mentioned he had floored Robinson, Rocky replied "I think he slipped." Jake always spun everything to benefit his image.

 

Well, there were no decisions to question in his wins over Cerdan and Dauthille, so if you don't feel that the ref should have called the Cerdan fight an NC (which perhaps doesn't really seem unreasonable, though) those have to be removed from fights where the venue could have played a part.

 

"Burley was more qualified than Graziano"

Certainly overall the better fighter, I think. But this doesn't deal with how they were rated by the raters in 1946. That is what matters concerning Zale, the subject of this thread.

So, who was the #1 rated contender in September, 1946? If someone can find out, I really would like to know.

Also, LaMotta jumped to the #1 middleweight contender position in 1943 mainly by beating welters. Robinson, Wilson, Zivic, Edgar were all welters, with Jake enjoying weight pulls far above what Graziano had.

 

That's a bit of a stretch imo.
N.B. LaMotta was born on the Lower East Side of New York City on July 10, 1922, to Italian parents.[2][3] Many sources had reported his year of birth as 1921,[4] but his daughter Christi said in a Facebook post immediately following his death that it was in fact 1922.[4] His mother was born in the United States to Italian immigrants, while his father was an immigrant from Messina, Sicily, who came with family including his brother Joseph. The family lived briefly in Philadelphia before returning to New York and settling in the Bronx.[2]

 

"Italian parents"

There are internet sources, and an old Ring Magazine article I have read, which states LaMotta's mother was Jewish.

The Jewish population of Italy is now 45,000. Relatively small, yes. But the Jewish population of Romania is 20,000. Doesn't mean that Edward G. Robinson, who was born in Romania, was not Jewish.

I only mentioned this in regards to the Purple Gang. LaMotta seems to have had connections with gangsters, regardless of the spin he personally put on it over the years. The ethnicity of the gangsters is less important than the connection.

 

It's from Wikipaedia ,I've no idea if its accurate but why would an old article be more accurate, now that we have instant access to the internet?
Just checked.
"My Mother was an Italian girl born in this country,but my Father was an Italian immigrant from Messina"
page 4 "Raging Bull "by Jake Lamotta.Guess Jake ought to know.