Where does Graziano rate all time at middleweight?

A top drawer puncher and personality but for me not a ATG.

Putting Rocky in the pavement arena rather than squared circle, and no doubt he would be in the running as a ATG in that category

 

No doubt about it

 

Who here claimed Robinson and Lamotta ducked Williams and Burley?

I thought the claim was graziano avoided the black murderers row And zale never fought anyone from the murderers row except Nate Bolden

 

I read here somewhere Cocoa Kid was a sparring partner for Zale. That's all I know. Any more info on this?
Reading Zales bio now but only just started it. Dont know if its mentioned

 

Sensational post, klompton, that could only have been bettered by the occasional carriage return. I didn'y know enough to have much of an opinion before but, now, I'm going to think what you think unless I read something incredibly convincing to suggest otherwise. Cheers.

 

I meant 'didn't' not 'didn'y' in case anyone mistakes me for a Sweaty (Scot). Typo.

 

I thought the post was ridiculous Burleys record shows him to be a great fighter and someone who was better than Jake

 

He is also being disingenuous in bringing up past prime losses. LaMotta lost to Billy Kilgore at the age Williams lost to Cerdan. I guess by this rationale the guys who beat Kilgore are better than LaMotta.

 

"Who here claimed Robinson and LaMotta ducked Williams and Burley?"

I did with LaMotta. I think it odd LaMotta couldn't arrange a bout with Burley or Williams from 1943 to 1945. Nor the elimination in 1947 with Burley that the NBA proposed. Jake did fight Williams after Williams had lost to Lytell and Cerdan.

I don't think Robinson should be accused of ducking anyone. He was in a lower weight class.

Zale was in the navy for most of this period.

Graziano was a contender working his way up. He picked his spots, but his "ducks" were for a far shorter period than Jake's.

 

Well, Lamotta fought Lloyd Marshall in 1943, whom was coming off a win over Burley months prior. If he was willing to fight Marshall, why would he be afraid to fight the lighter punching Burley?


The problem with Graziano is he literally didn’t fight any actual middleweights except Zale, Robinson, and Janiro. Nearly his entire record consisted of fighting small welterweights

I don’t know if there is another fighter in history who got 3 title shots despite not beating any top 10 fighters in his actual weight class. May

 

"I don't know if there is another fighter in history who got 3 title shots despite not beating any top 10 fighters in his actual weight class"

Here are the top box office returns in middleweight fights as of 1952:

1-----Robinson-Turpin (1951) $767,000
2-----Graziano-Zale (1947) $422,000
3-----Graziano-Zale (1946) $342,000
4-----Greb-Walker (1925) $339,000
5-----Graziano-Zale (1948) $335,000
6-----Graziano-Robinson (1952) $252,000

Four of the top six to this point were Graziano fights. Three of the top four up to 1950.

The problem has been alluded to by a couple of posters. Graziano was the middleweight folks wanted to see. It is easy to take the "high road" that the champs should have been meeting this or that jab and grab boring fighter, but the bottom line comes down to isn't what the fans want of some importance.

At least a bit of food for thought about boxing as a sport and as an entertainment business.

 

What the fans want may be of some importance but I don't see it as especially relevant if a challenger is massively lacking in credentials.

 

Lamotta took all the money in the Marshall fight ,plus he made Lloyd come in under 161lbs or forfeit his purse.

 

I find it hard to claim that Robinson ducked Burley since there was a weight class separating them and Burley never was in contention for any title Robinson held.

That said, it seems that Robinson wanted no part of Burley. At least on this forum it has been claimed that SRR turned down what would have been his best pay-day yet (50 000 $) to fight him. If it is true, it says quite a bit about how much a threat he regarded Burley as, since he had no hesitation to face LaMotta and other high ranking MWs when he himself was a WW.

 

"I don't know if there is another fighter in history who got 3 title shots despite not beating any top 10 fighters in his actual weight class."

Several of 'em who got title shots I think hadn't beaten a top man at that weight, but most were the champs at the lighter weight. What heavyweights had Michael Spinks fought before he took on Holmes? Graziano was a small middleweight who KO'd two welter champs. Whatever, these wins did move him into a high rating at middle, where he did KO the champion, so certainly for his third shot he did have a win over a rated middleweight. But anyway, that third shot was against Robinson.

But, if Graziano in your view didn't merit the second shot in 1947, who should have gotten it? I think actually the logical #1 man if I were rating would have been Cerdan coming off wins over both Williams and Abrams, two top five middles, with no real losses on his record in about 100 fights.