Was Angelo Dundee overrated as a boxing trainer?

I'm not sold on this . Cus trained all his guys the same with the peek a boo stance which obscures some of your own view and often leaves you squared up and not able to utilise the jab as effectively as you might wish.His use of the "apparatus" was innovative though.

 

I'm surprised you think this , can I ask why ?
Duva was more manager/ cheerleader for me . George Benton was the trainer, Duva oversaw things threw a towel on his shoulder and did alot of shouting. Benton tried to refine the boxer in Tyrell Biggs, whereas Duva encouraged him to fight to try and be a crowd pleaser. I always felt his ''concern" for his fighters came across as fake.
Lennox credited Steward with honing him to the best he could be.
Dundee gets elevated on his connection with Ali , I'm sure he was a very good trainer but came into his own with the right advice on fight night.He always struck me as being very perceptive about the opponent which is just as important. I can't say I feel these things about Duva.

 

I'd say you are very perceptive about Duva,I think he was a self- promoter and if his concern for his charges was genuine ,why did so many of them leave him?

 

Hi McVey, it's purely because I have some kinda first hand ( ish) knowledge of how Biggs was treated.
Duva would be on TV telling folks Tyrell was the "next world champ/ best young heavyweight out there "etc , encouraging him to fight the wrong way to become more marketable , all the while the objective was to steer him to the big payoff against Tyson as soon as possible. Biggs had an horrific cut in his bout with David Bey that really needed surgery and a year off but they still went ahead against Tyson and the exact same cut sliced open in round 3 . It didn't alter the outcome but didn't help and sure as hell it showed where the Duvas priorities lay. I heard a few other things..to be fair there's always 2 sides to things and he ain't here to put his side, but Duvas/ Main events was a high turnover fighter factory.

 

I heard they were just looking to cash in with the Tyson fight.

 

He had a mold and so did Dundee. There are flaws in every style and every stance.

 

Pastrano and SRL were much more shaped by earlier/other trainers (SRL had a co-trainer), I'd say. Ali mostly shaped himself. SRL wasn't really impressed by what Dundee gave him in training. Rather it was in management and as a cornerman he excelled.

Both Ali and Leonard were steered perfectly in their early career. Meeting just tough enough opponents, so they could maintain unbeaten records but still do the necessary step up when the time came. He also made crucial interventions for both in the corner.

 

Duva was a cheerleader.

Oh and also a liar. He told Taylor he had to win the 12th round vs Chavez and the lied about it. Same with Whitaker vs Oscar where he also later denied giving instructions which he clearly gave.

And he idly stood by and watched while Fernando Vargas, Meldrick Taylor, Tyrell Biggs, tim littles and others took beatings that should have been stopped earlier. And were cashed out and thrown into fights that they weren't ready for far too early.
And then when they were damaged goods he threw them aside and dumped them like garbage.

He even had the stones to call evander Holyfield a lazy bum after the first Bowe fight, he threw him to the wolves against Qawi in his 12th pro fight and even though evander pulled through on his own Duva threw him aside like garbage also after he lost to Bowe, thinking he had squeezed all out of him that there was, well evander wasn't anywhere close to finished yet!

Dundee was a good trainer but a truly exceptional cornerman.

 

Muhammad's personality and celebrity elevates everyone and everything around him a bit beyond what it actually was.
Norton Foreman Frazier Shavers Howard Cosell.....
The entire Ali era is looked at through rose tinted glasses to some extent while the era afterwards in the 80s suffers unjustly in comparison.
So imo they are overrated but
Dundee's work extends over several eras and he did a great job in all of them so I can't really say he was overrated.


I mean guys like Joe Bugner really don't look any better than 80s or 90s journeyman and fringe contenders like Pierre coetzer but therefore Ali era and everyone in it has attained like Mythical status by proxy because of Ali being basically one of the biggest celebrities of all time

 

Dundee didn't have to do much with Ray but what he did do was build up his stamina, sit him down more on his punches and teach him some angles and finesses. He was also an extremely good strategist.

 

I think the consensus is that Dundee wasn't a great technical trainer, but a great motivator and cornerman.
He certainly motivated Willie Pastrano when he was getting beat up by Terry Downes!

 

Interesting piece. Cus D'Amato was class and Ali entertaining; especially, when he's telling Cus that Joe Frazier "don't fight like this..."

Dundee was, as I would expect, quite guarded in what he said; not wanting to talk too much about the perceived points of concern, made by Cus. I'm not sure that the verbal exchanges can, on their own, show a disparity in knowledge between the two.

My impression is that they had very different personalities; both extraordinary in their own right, with probably quite individually unique ways of going about things.

 

as I said, he seemed to bring out the most in his fighters and devised the strategy the fight plan against Hearns to take the impact off Tommy's right hand, and then get closer and pound Tommy's insides

plus, look at Leonard's conditioning and strength. the sign of a well conditioned fighter

nothing would have saved Leonard from Norris tho (too tricky a fighter and too fast)

 

If Angie is in your corner you have an asset. Trust me the man will cheat if necessary. Check out Dundee after round 1 of Pinky Thomas and Tyson.
That's a guy you want watching your back. He sees everything and can think on the fly.

 

oh yes. he cut Ali's glove in the Cooper fight in 1963 and had Ali drag it across Henry's eye

all because Henry roughed him up and seemed to be giving him more than he could handle