Where does Graziano rate all time at middleweight?

"Villemain beat Delannoit and established himself as France's top middleweight"

A 22 year old welterweight beating a green 20 year old welterweight makes him France's top middlweight? Villemain wasn't even fighting at middle until 1948.

"Villemain wanted the fight"

Some evidence would be helpful.

"and would have given Cerdan boat loads of trouble"

Possibly, after all he was better than LaMotta, but lost badly to both Belloise and Sands while easily handling Jake twice that same year.

Hard to believe anyone here who isn't European is all that fluent in French boxing politics, so why did the EU sanction the fight with Delannoit? My guess is because he was the outstanding MIDDLEWEIGHT contender in 1948.

By the way, Villemain won the French welter title from Omar Kouidi and defended his Euro welter title against Kouidi, who had already lost several times to Cerdan over the years. Cerdan loses one decision in his career of 114 bouts, while beating the man badly in an immediate rematch, flooring him four times, but this one loss at 32 (LaMotta was totally washed up at that age) proves him nothing.

Also, make up your mind on what you believe. With Villemain, a welter beating a welter proves he is the top middleweight. You take exactly the opposite position with Graziano in the very next thread with KO's of even world champion welters proving nothing at middleweight.

And all the trashing of Cerdan in the world isn't going to explain away anything about LaMotta's really weird record of questionable decisions, plus his ducks of most of the top men. If Cerdan wasn't much, this just takes even more shine off of LaMotta. Cerdan was the one Jake won his title from after losing to a second-level Euro in Dauthuille, getting a gift decision over the smallish Villemain, before ducking his best challengers, Belloise, Sands, and Villemain.

 

But all but one of those KO's were against WWs , right?

He was also KO'd a lot more than LaMotta. Some of Jake's losses were SD as well, including the 5th fight with SRR.

 

"You can make a good case for Villemain above Cerdan"

A case based on no real evidence. Unlike the case for Villemain over LaMotta which is based on Villemain besting Jake in the ring although Villemain's swarming style would seem to have been made to order for the supposedly physically all powerful Jake.

Also, Belloise, Sands, and of course Robinson proved themselves better than Villemain. And Randy Turpin was also around. Makes one wonder if LaMotta was even in the top five middleweights from 1949 to 1951 when he was reigning as champion.

"Cerdan wanted no part of him"

You keep saying this but provide no evidence. I'll go over to boxrec and get the quote from Villemain after he beat LaMotta in December of 1949 that now he wanted a title shot against Jake. Why didn't he get it? It is a unique spin to claim Cerdan was doing the ducking when it is as obvious as an elephant in your kitchen that LaMotta ducked Villemain rather than defend against him.

From boxrec quoting Robert Villemain after his second fight with LaMotta--"I want LaMotta to fight me for the championship now. I won the last time, too, but this time I got the decision. I am very happy to win. I will bring back the championship for my country and Marcel Cerdan."

Cerdan and Villemain were only in the same division from the spring to 1948 to Cerdan's death in 1949, and during most of that time Cerdan was world champion and there were a lot higher rated world title contenders than Villemain, who was only ranked #8 at the end of 1948 before losing to Belloise.

A bigger question is how LaMotta got the championship shot in 1949 over Steve Belloise. I think I found out the answer in an article about Cerdan. It said that in signing for Zale, Cerdan had to agree to defend in the USA against the challenger chosen by the IBC the next year. That explains how the mob connected LaMotta got his undeserved shot over Belloise. Also explains why Cerdan never defended in France as one would expect.

 

"defeating the A team"

LaMotta never really beat Villemain. Dauthuille lost to all the other top Euro fighters but beat Jake. Mitri doesn't seem to have been that good overall. LaMotta beat Cerdan after injuring him by fouling. By the way, Randy Turpin and Humez were probably better than these guys, except for Cerdan.

Cerdan did occasionally have trouble with opponents, but nothing like LaMotta's constant losses and SD's and ducks of the top men.

"Williams"

Hard to be seen as that controversial if the best counter evidence to the official decision you can come up with is that one observer thought a draw would be fair. That indicates only that it was a close fight. This is no controversy on the order of the first Villemain fight in which the officials who voted for Jake were suspended.

"Abrams"

Spin all you want, but this was an impressive win over a top ranked contender in that man's home country. How does Cerdan compare against Abrams to Belloise and Robinson.

8-23-1946 scorecards of Belloise vs Abrams

Ref Ruby Goldstein--4-4-2
Judge Marty Monroe--6-4 Abrams
Judge George LeCron--7-3 Abrams

12-16-1946 scorecards of Cerdan vs Abrams

Ref Ruby Goldstein--6-2-2 Cerdan
Judge Marty Monroe--Cerdan *
Judge Frank Forbes--Cerdan *
AP scorecard--5-4-1 Cerdan
UPI scorecard--5-3-2 Cerdan

5-16-1947 scorecards of Robinson vs Abrams

Ref Eddie Joseph--6-4 Robinson
Judge Frank Forves--6-4 Robinson
Judge Marty Monroe--6-4 Abrams
AP Scorecard--6-3-1 Abrams
UPI Scorecard--6-4 Abrams

*boxrec lists Cerdan winning 9 and 7 rounds from these judges, but the scores seem confused. What isn't in doubt is that Cerdan won a UD.

So Cerdan did better against Abrams than either Belloise or Robinson at about the same time.

 

One thing, Graziano did not knock out Hunter, apparently. I will put the AP quote up on that one.

The others he did. Here are the weights of his KO opponents:

Billy Arnold-----150
Bummy Davis---146
Red Cochrane---143
Red Cochrane---145
Harold Green----151
Marty Servo-----145
Tony Zale--------159
Charley Fusari---148
Henry Brimm----158
Gene Burton-----151
Reuben Jones----168
Johnny Greco----153
Cecil Hudson-----164
Tony Janiro-------155

so it is certainly valid to say Graziano feasted on smaller fighters. He seems to have carried his punch well against heavier men, though.

This is the AP on the Chuck Hunter fight: August 6, 1951----"Rocky Graziano seemingly knocked out Chuck Hunter of Cleveland in the second round tonight at Boston Garden but Hunter was later disqualified for 'slapping not punching.'"

Makes no sense to me. Perhaps someone can find and post a full fight report. Doesn't seem much doubt Graziano won, though, and apparently stopped Hunter. Hunter weighed 169.

My point isn't that Graziano is all that great, though. It is that he was winning clearly rather than getting decisions most disagreed with, and so it is natural the fans might view him more highly even if his competition is not exactly on the same level.

 

"Tiberio Mitri whom you claimed was not that good."

I meant prior to Cerdan winning the world title, but I should have made myself clearer. He fought draws with Antoine Tonoiolo and Giovanni Manca in 1947. Overall, I don't think Mitri was as good as Humez and Villemain, but he was a worthy contender, if never the top guy out there, even in Europe.

"Belloise"

Is the guy who actually met the best at their best. Lost close ones to Overlin for the title back in 1940. Fought a peak Williams in 1943 (when LaMotta was ducking him) and the fight seems to have been close. When he fought Robinson he only had a 4 1/2 lb. weight pull (158 to 153.5) while Jake in his one win had 16 lbs on Sugar. He met Williams and Robinson when they were 28. Winning those fights would push Belloise into the top ten all time. The Dauthuille fight came when he was aging and at the end of the line. Hunter was fading badly when LaMotta matched him rather than Belloise in order to claim paper superiority. Belloise was rated every year he was active in the whole decade, and was rated ahead of LaMotta in 1947 and 1948 and certainly looked better by a mile against Villemain. (Belloise would be an interesting subject for closer scrutiny). Bottom line for me is this is another top guy LaMotta didn't fight.

"Abrams" "Doesn't sound like a man who was anywhere near his peak when he fought Cerdan"

Tell that to Belloise and Robinson. Ray's decision over Abrams in 1947 was very close.

"LaMotta" "He was fearless"

at taking on welters. Against middles, somehow he missed Burley, Abrams, Belloise, Sands, etc. He only matched Williams because he had to after Cerdan showed him up by taking on and beating Williams. (and I have no proof, but I wonder about the Detroit officials) Can anyone deny he ducked Villemain for a title shot? Lytell is a very misleading scalp as Jake fought a green version who lost six fights that year. Jake was nowhere to be seen after Lytell turned it around and started moving up in the ratings. More quack, quack than fearless.

"Cerdan wouldn't get into the ring with Villemain"

You don't know that. Show me Villemain being rated even at welter in 1947. He was #8 at middle at the end of 1948, behind Delannoit and Turpin. This is a smear w/o a bit of evidence let alone proof to cover LaMotta actually being unable to deal with Villemain and finally ducking him rather than meeting him in a championship match.

"in an era of white fighters ducking top black fighters"

Like LaMotta, unless the guy was in a different division and it wouldn't hurt his rating to lose. Most of the guys you accuse of ducking black fighters were in the service. LaMotta wasn't. Why didn't he fight Williams or Burley during the war years? Why didn't he accept the NBA's elimination with Burley? He picked his spots. Belloise served for years during WWII but still managed a fight with Williams in 1943.

"Why did Cerdan get a title shot despite being rated lower than Bert Lytell?"

A better question was why in the world was Cerdan ever rated behind Lytell. Going into 1948, Cerdan had lost only two fights on fouls, and those years earlier. He went into 1946 ranked the #5 contender behind Williams, Burley, LaMotta, and Graziano. Neither LaMotta nor Graziano had fought any of the other top contenders. Cerdan immediately beats the #1 guy, Williams, and then the guy was was #1 in 1941 before entering the service, and was again in the top 5, Abrams. Does he move up. No. LaMotta, although fighting a draw that year, jumps to #1, followed by Burley and Graziano. (Graziano?) In 1947 LaMotta blows a decision to Hudson and gets KO'd by Fox. At least they drop him to #5. But Zale is now the #1 contender coming off a KO loss to Graziano. Who is #2. Lytell who had losses to Johnny Finazzo (24-24-8) in late 1944, lost 6 times in 1945, and was KO'd by Deacon Johnny Brown (24-18-3) in 1946, among other defeats. By the spring of 1948, when Cerdan suffers his 3rd loss, which he quickly reverses, Lytell had lost 13 times and drawn 5, and was coming off a loss and a draw. These American ratings versus foreign fighters are a joke.

There is a valid point about Cerdan having a thin American resume because of WWII, but for me he is obviously the legit #1 man from 1946 until he finally gets his shot at the title.

Where Cerdan rates as an all-time middle is another question.

By the way, I think Cerdan was the #1 contender when he got into the ring with Zale. Again, if anyone has the ratings, I would like to see them. If he wasn't rated #1 in the obviously biased American centered ratings, it doesn't mean anything to me.

 

Just on Belloise's credentials in 1949.

The four guys LaMotta beat weren't all in the picture in 1949. Belloise hadn't fought Robinson and Dauthuille yet. He would later. LaMotta hadn't beaten Hunter yet.

The only man to beat Belloise that LaMotta had beaten was Williams. Belloise lost to him at his peak in 1943. LaMotta beat him after Williams started slipping in 1946.

Belloise was actually rated above Jake in both 1947 and 1948, and was coming off a decisive win over Villemain, while Jake was coming off a loss to Dauthuille, and a fight he should have lost to Villemain.

It is a no brainer that Belloise was the better contender in 1949.

 

great to see a proper dialogue based on Historical Reports and not just mocking inflammatory opinion the way these sites have ended up the last 7 years or more.

lovely to see integrity.

I've said for years Jake was over rated, though still a great fight, like HUNDREDS of them
I've also tried to highlight his WW prescription for years, the Movie is what gave LaMotta his rating.

the biggest problem with these discussions is hypocrisy & double standards that are applied to one yet the same truths not to the other.

some people just won't credit TOP men as being just that Top Men, other's will spew a fighters age i.e Zale, but refuse to give Cerdan the same reality, just 2 years between them, and both fighting for damn near as long, that's equal fact is never highlighted.

Euro & Brit fights are subpar, says who? NOT the TOP among them, no way, but that's never highlighted.

Robert Villemain, ah "the Proof Fighter" as I've called him for years,
the little 5'6" Welter cum middle, a Great fighter, just like his loads of peers.

These are/were TOP Men at home and abroad, they fought many top and noted fighters and they all CAN'T fit into 11, if you know what I mean.

the impossibility of rating 100 great fighters from the LEADING Boxing Nations is hard enough, then you have to factor in the corruption of boxing, money, ownership and organize Business and then criminal activity too.

the Ring was rating 2000 World class fighters back then divided into 8 divisions, quick math that approx. 150 fighters per division.

Well in such a busy, rich era & talent pool in the LEADING Boxing Nations the world over, well either side of 50 fighters can't possibly fight into 11 (champ & top 10), so Great fighters though they were, the sheer numbers alone and corruption just made it a further impossibility.

great discussion.