Where does Graziano rate all time at middleweight?

“Close to reality”

Like you trying to claim Lamotta ducked murderers row fighters when he took on more of them than all the top white middleweights combined

“Lamotta”

It’s a fact he was number 1 rated entering 1947. Where was his title shot? Oh wait, the mob told him no so they forced him to take part in a fixed fight. That Tony Zale passed up on Lamotta in 1947 should tell you something right there


“Thin resume”

Of course. Lamotta has the far superior resume and head to head victory

“I think cerdan was number 1 when he fought cerdan”

Burden of proof is on you. I posted the year ratings, Lytell was higher and you cried about it

You also claimed graziano May have been number 1 when he fought zale despite not defeating ANY top 10 middleweight contenders from 1943-1946....Where was your outrage then? Name me a good fighter Graziano beat whom weighed near 160 prior to getting his title Shot?

“Cerdan was best of Europe and France”

Maybe but he never fought Robert Villemain who was an outstanding contender from France, despite Villemain issuing several challenges to cerdan

“Falsehoods”

Like you claiming Lamotta ducked people, when he has by far the best resume of any white middleweight during that era.

“Hook line and sinker”


Kind of like you buy into the cerdan film hype. People rave about how great he looks on film but at the same time you have to take into account who he was fighting. Careful matchmaking can a make a guy look like freaking superman. I think Cerdan was unproven at the highest levels of the sport.

“Cerdan entered 1948 several spots higher”

1. Lamotta entered 1947 rated number 1 in the world. He already deserved a title shot at that point. They said no. He was forced to take part in a fixed fight in order of a promised title shot down the road.

2. Of course Lamotta was rated lower in 1948...he had just taken part in a fixed fight the year earlier in order to get a title shot he should have already had as the ring magazine number 1 contender!

3. Did cerdan ever obtain number 1 status? I don’t see it in the yearly ratings. But you have all kinds of excuses for graziano so I’m sure you have them for cerdan

 

Steve Compton has pictures of Lamottas hand after the cerdan fight and it was swollen to twice it’s normal size. Anyone who has boxed with broken knuckles knows how much pain it is. It should be noted prior to both injuries occurring, Lamotta had swarmed all over cerdan, badly hurting him, and pummeling him in the corner. The New York press marveled at jakes physique for this fight. It was clear he trained hard and was shredded

 

Nice info from Steve Compton


“I dont think you can really hold the war years against anyone because the title was frozen but I definately think from 45/46 on Jake was better than anyone holding the championship during that period i.e. zale, graziano, and cerdan. Theres no doubt in my mind neither zale nor graziano wanted any part of Jake. Give credit to cerdan for fighting Jake but all the incentives were in Cerdans favor: he got the champions purse, the challengers (if Jake won), a $20,000 bribe (although this may have gone directly to the mob) and lucrative rematch clause.

Beyond that theres no doubt that LaMotta was rated right at the top of the division for years before his shot and while he did lose some fights (not many) consider those losses: Marshall moved up to lhw almost immediately after that fight, Basora was avenged 3 times, the final being a one sided beating resulting in a stoppage, and Robinson was already acknowledged as one of the greatest fighters in history at that point. The Fox fight was a fix (against a lhw btw) and the cecil hudson fight appears to be a bit of an abbheration with many at the time think Jake threw it (and he sort of did by trying to make himself look bad to draw in guys who had been ducking him only to miscalculate and lose the decision). The mob was preventing Jake from becoming champion, forcing him to pay bribes and take dives to move up in the sport. They got what was coming to them. They were a cancer and at least Jake attempted to stand up to them and when he finally did testify he didnt sugar coat his culpability or hide behind the fifth as so many others had.


I dont think Belloise would have beaten LaMotta, he was a banger and LaMotta gobbled those guys up and Abrams was nothing after 1942. When he got out of the service his record was 4-5-1 and three of those losses came against nobodies with losing records. Theres no doubt that Jake was deserving of a shot years before he got one so yeah, hes got room to gripe. Its pretty inexcusible that Zale had nearly 20 fights after the war and never once defended against his top contender or that Graziano wormed his way into a title shot based on wins over welterweights like servo, cochrane, arnold, and davis. All guys that woulda been called mismatches if matched with Jake at the time.

Jake is overrated by as some inhuman superman based on the movie. And underrated because nowadays a lot of people think he was a face first brawler with no defense, speed, or punching power. When in fact he had a ton of stamina (he was compared to Harry Greb early in his career), had very subtle defensive skills, an excellent and underrated jab, and he was a terrific bodypuncher (one of the best ever, and its to the body where his power punches fell). Look at the guys he fought that nobody else and the guys who wanted nothing to do with him. Zale and Graziano are considered legendary tough men and they literally would have crossed the street if they saw LaMotta coming their way. They certainly did it professionally. Another reason he is underrated today is that we dont really have any film of him in his prime. He was already past his best when he fought Cerdan and once he won the championship he went downhill pretty quick.

The thing about Cerdan is that people always say "he looks great on film." and "People who saw him in France and Africa said he was amazing." and "He only lost a few times in nearly 100 fights." BUT all of those things hinge on his level of opposition. He was fighting a ton of mediocre fighters at best so he damn well should have looked good against them and his record should be largely intact against them and its those fights we have of him on film. When he stepped up his competition he wasnt nearly as impressive and he always had an excuse for it. Against Dellanoit he was sick. Against Abrams he had a shoulder injury. Against Holman Williams it was a bad hand. Against Anton Raadik it was the flu. Against Jake LaMotta it was his shoulder. Those are the best guys he faced, for one reason or another he looked vulnerable in every fight and every time out he had an excuse. Call me cynical but I tend believe if a guy looks fantastic against ****ty competition and not against good competition it has more to do with his level of competition than with any one of the numerous excuses he can come up with”

 

Read above historian Steve Compton’s take

 

More info on Graziano-Lamotta

“Graziano and LaMotta were signed to fight in 1950. Graziano didnt believe LaMotta was serious about the fight and when told that LaMotta was in great shape and training hard Graziano walked over and punched a tree breaking his hand to get out of the fight. True story.”- Steve Compton


Hopefully this puts to bed the graziano wasn’t afraid of Lamotta talk

 

Interesting from Zales sparring partner Leon Thompson

“I think Jake beats any Zale but obviously pre war its a much better matchup. Zales sparring partner Leon Thompson told me he didnt think either Zale or Cerdan (whom he also sparred with) could have ever beaten LaMotta (and he was friends with Zale until Zales death). Winch and Pian knew Zale was over the hill after the Army and his days were numbered. They were looking for the most beatable opponents with the biggest names: Enter Graziano.” - Steve Compton

 

More info from Compton

“This is the most overblown excuse for Cerdan. If you go back and read what Cerdan actually said immediately after the bout you would see that Cerdan said he injured his shoulder BEFORE he fell to the canvas when throwing a punch. It had nothing to do with LaMotta. It also excuses the fact that LaMotta fought that fight with a broken hand. In reality had LaMotta gotten his title shot 3 or 4 years earlier instead of being leap frogged by smaller, less deserving fighters in Cerdan and Graziano, we would have never heard of Cerdan, Graziano, or the Zale-Graziano trilogy.

Characterizing Williams and Zale as past it but calling his win over Abrams class is a major stretch. Abrams was well past his prime at this point which is the reason why Cerdan, who had never been seen in the USA was made a favorite over him. And lets also not forget that when Cerdan faced the aging Abrams and was shown to be very hittable, suffered cuts around both eyes, and won a close decision (two judges had the fight even on rounds, and some people complained that Cerdan should have lost points due to low blows) he used the same excuse as he did against LaMotta, an injured shoulder. It gets so tiresome hearing the same old party line repeated about how LaMotta wouldnt have won had Cerdan not injured his shoulder. It totally ignores that LaMotta was absolutely kicking the **** out of Cerdan before he ever injured his shoulder and that the fall happened because Cerdan was trying to hold on for dear life to halt the ass kicking he was getting “




Allan Rosenfeld, who was a boxing writer and authored the book on Charley Burley, was ringside for the fight and told me himself that LaMotta beat the **** out of Cerdan before any injury.

Charles Cain, writing for the AP wrote: "The reformed Bronx "bad boy" felt he could have taken Cerdan anyway regardless of the injury and the way Jake started out, most of the crowd agreed with him." Cain stated that Cerdan took a terrific beating in the fight. He also wrote that: LaMotta "took command from the opening bell and even in the first round when Cerdan's hands were okay, jake won the round on the cards of the three ring officials.

Al Abrams writing for the Pittsburgh Post Gazette stated that LaMotta won the first round big.

Wilfred Smith of the Chicago Tribune wrote: "After the first round, in which LaMotta nearly had Cerdan out on his feet, the challenger was content to let a multitude of blows wear down the champion."
Tommy Holmes writing for the Brooklyn Daily Eagle wrote: "While Cerdan's injury will be advanced as an alibi and probably did result in his failure to go the 15 round limit LaMotta was the boss of the brawl from the start.

James P Dawson of the New York Times stated: "It was a thorough, decisive battle, too, from the outset. In the first round LaMotta almost knocked out his rival. A long left hook to the jaw drove Cerdan against the ropes midway through the session, the champions knees buckling under him. So furious was Lamotta in his bid for victory that he wrestled Cerdan across the ring, trying to shake off the desperately holding defending champion."

Jack Cuddy writing for the UPI stated: "In the first round while Cerdan was absorbing a terrific battering, LaMotta half threw him to the canvas."



Abrams gave Cerdan only two rounds.

James P Dawson of the New York times said that Cerdan was "punched into oblivion cleanly and decisively through seven of the nine rounds." He stated that Cerdan was overmatched from the start against a bigger, stronger, and more savage foe.

The referee (who was no fan of LaMotta btw) gave cerdan only 1 round.

Cerdan was in such bad shape in the seventh and eighth rounds that he went to the wrong corner. Every article I can find states a different story about the injury. Most state that Cerdan injured his shoulder in the first and that finally stopped using it in the fourth. Some mention that he didnt injure it until second and othersthat Johnny Weber, the referee, noticed Cerdan moan after missing a left hook in the second. Some even call into the question the extent of the injury noting that the ringside physician was adamant that he could find no injury and that he recommended the fight continue but the corner stopped it. It was also noted that in order for LaMotta to get a title shot cerdan had forced LaMotta to sign an agreement that meant LaMotta's purse would go into escrow until after LaMotta fought a rematch with Cerdan in the event that Cerdan lost the title. Obviously Cerdan A. Wasnt as confident of beating LaMotta as some of you are and B. maybe felt he could get a redo when things started going bad for him. Dawson advised Cerdan to forget about any rematch with LaMotta as he was flirting with disaster.

 

From info on Abrams-Cerdan

“The vast majority of bouts Cerdan had were against total no names. Whereas Georgie Abrams had fought the cream of the middleweight division time and again. Nevermind that he was just getting his legs back from under him after being out during the war. There is no doubt that Abrams was past his best when he fought Cerdan. Chris Dundee always said that Abrams could never regain the form he had lost during the war. Period. Thats proven by his less than stellar record during that period. It didnt take a Ray Robinson to fight on even terms with Abrams at this point.

Also, how do you figure the Robinson fight was a career best performance for Abrams?? Abrams had nearly 12 pounds on Robinson, was suspended for 30 days after this fight for failing to make the contracted weight, and won at most four rounds. The reason the fight was so close, and the decision booed by some in the audience was because the fight was considered very dull and Robinson had two rounds that he won taken away due to low blows. Had those rounds not been taken away the decision would have been fairly wide. Even so his lead was enough to take the decision. One writer said Ray fought just as hard as he had to to win and no more. Another was mystified that some thought the fight close. He had Robinson a clear winner even with the deductions and stated that while Robinson strayed low a couple of times the audience and referee were influenced by Abrams handlers crying foul almost before the fight started and kept it up loud and long. Another paper said the claims of fouling were so overblown that at one point Abrams handlers cried foul while Robinson was still winding up the punch, before he even let it go. Thats hardly a loss to be trumpeting as some guys career best performance.

Another point that is never mentioned when discussing supposed handicaps is that this fight was postponed one day due to rain. LaMotta, the naturally bigger guy, weighed in on the original date and technically, according to the rules in Detroit, did not have to weigh in again on the second day but Cerdan demanded that LaMotta stay at that low weight for another 24 hours. LaMotta relented to get the title shot. So while Cerdan may have been a different fighter without his shoulder injury LaMotta likely would have been a different fighter without a broken hand and without having to maintain weight for such an abnormally long period of time.”

 

Robinson Abrams


In regards to Georgie Abrams and Robinson Leonard Cohen writing for the New York Post stated: "Sugar Ray Robinson lost something. Call it the will to win or perhaps its the natural letdown for a fighter who is no longer money hungry. But whatever the reason the man who stood out head and shoulders above everyone in the welterweight division before he won the crown is no longer the fighter he used to be." Cohen gave Abrams only three rounds but had the fight a draw after Robinson had two rounds deducted. "Robbies foul punches made the fight closer than it otherwise would have been for the two rounds he lost would have been credited to his side of the ledger." "It was far from a good bout with too many dull spots and clinches. Abrams took all Robbie threw at him and came plodding in."

Al Buck writing for the same paper stated: "Had the decision gone against him sugar ray would have been guilty of throwing it away himself." Buck gave the decision to Robinson by five rounds to four with one even and thats even with the deductions.

Neither report made any mention of Abrams doing anything special or making a great fight. Rather both mention Robinson being below par as the reason for the fight being close. The reference to Abrams being plodding when he was once a stylist is another clue to Abrams lack of form by this point.

Jack Cuddy goes to great lengths to describe just how bad Robinson looked in the fight calling him unimpressive, defensively careless. Cuddy stated that in rounds 2, 7, and 8 Robinson almost knocked Abrams out. The 7th and 8th were the rounds that Robinson lost but were two of his biggest rounds.

Buster Miller writing for the New York Age wrote: "We came away with the conviction that Robinson is still the best welterweight in the world. Just that and no more." "The fight was wholely unsatisfactory. It proved nothing. Neither Robinson nor Abrams showed a great deal of enthusiasm in spots and the fight hungry Garden crowd after six weeks of lions, tigers, and elephants got stuck with a turkey." Miller stated that Robinson was obviously saving his hands for his title defense against Jimmy Doyle by going to the body. "This provided the cue for his (Abrams) handlers and the ringsiders who had taken the short ends of odds at 3-1 to raise their cry of "foul." It very nearly worked. At one stage of the fight the crowd and Abrams Handlers were yelling foul before Robbie even started to swing." "Against Abrams he was only as good as he had to be."

Tommy Holmes writing for the Brooklyn Daily Eagle wrote: "SUGAR RAY WON - One of the more difficult of God's critters to understand is the boxing critic. Here Ray Robinson the welterweight champion spots rugged tricky Georgie Abrams almost a dozen pounds. He wins handily you think. But you pick up newspapers the next day and read that Sugar Ray is well on his way to being completely washed up if not in fact in a state of rigor mortis." "This Friday night party wouldnt have even been close if Robinson hadnt been penalized two rounds in which he whaled the whey out of Abrams. Penalized for meaningless low punching. The Garden customers certainly were hypnotized into the wrong slant on Robinson's body punching. Led by the anvil chorus in Abrams corner, the started sqwuaking about legal beltline wallops and progressed to the point where the yipped about punches just below Georgies wishbone. There were a few stray blows south of the equator due mainly to the fact that Georgie rose on his toes and sometimes actually left his feet to take them there." Holmes also agreed that Robinson was trying to save his hands for his upcoming title fight.

Joseph C Nichols writing for the New York Times. Had the fight 6 rounds to 4 for Robinson with the two rounds deducted. Meaning Abrams won 2 rounds on his card.