Top 20 Light Heavyweights of all time

Eddie Gregory if...his head was on straight! I know, I'm getting old with this one.
Excuse me, EZZ excepted...

 

My reasons might not apply, as you may see the H2H going differently, or differ on criteria, but:
1. Head to Head, I see it as a bit of a 50:50.
2. I try not to consider accomplishments at HW when compiling a LHW list, unless the guy actually weighed in under 175 (so, for example, I would take some of Tommy Burns' earlier HW performances into account for a LHW list).
Spinks was definitely better at heavyweight than Foster. I too have him over Foster, but only just. I guess I just rate Spinks a bit lower than you do.

 

It does depend how you do your rankings. I think there's a case for excluding Langford, since I'm not sure he ever fought in a Light Heavyweight division as such. Same a Fitz, though he did win a Light Heavyweight title, he never had much of a Light Heavyweight career compared to at Heavyweight and Middleweight, and the weight limit was a lot lower, so it's questionable if it can be called the same division.

I think there's a case to exclude some early guys, whereas while Charles was denied the shot he clearly deserved, he clearly fought at, and got good results at Light Heavyweight.

 

I just have a question which I want to raise, but I don't personally have a settled position on this, so don't get your fur up.

Is Charles riding Moore's achievements to the #1 spot here? He obviously would have been light-heavy champ for a couple of years in the late forties if given a shot, but most likely would have abandoned the title with Joe Louis' retirement to move up to the more lucrative heavyweight division. So he would probably only been champion for a brief run. His bad losses in 1943 to Bivins and Marshall undercut any pre-war claims.

So, is he really given the top rating because Moore did so well in the 1950's, and is that fair? Moore was much more erratic in the 1940's. Perhaps he improved despite aging.

I have an alternate history question. What if Moore rather than dominating the light-heavies in the 1950's had hit the age wall like most other fighters and started losing around 1950 or so, and after a few bad losses, retired? Would you then rate Charles #1? Or would he just be another guy who was the best light-heavy for a short while before leaving the division?

 

I didn't like leaving him out,he was rather a ,"what might have been."

 

Its an intruiging question.

 

I take your point but Clay Moyle who wrote a great book on Langford states his best weight was around 175lbs. Fitz was past it when he won the Lhvy title but he likely scaled around the weight for many of his fights.

 

Still they were wayyyy more proved than sam at 175.

 

Excellent response to an excellent question, SuzieQ49. Will give my own view on this separately.

 

Since we don't know Langford's weight for a lot of his fights this is debatable.imo

 

It's a question I've pondered too. I think SuzieQ49 has made the case for Charles wonderfully well and looking at that resume it's hard to argue with Charles at the number 1 spot. But I don't have him there - I have Moore at no. 1.

This is not designed to disparage or underrate Charles' victories over Moore but I've wondered whether Moore was truly at his peak when he fought Charles. Is it possible for a fighter to be in his physical prime but not his fighting prime (if that makes sense)? If so, it might be the case with Moore.

Moore achieved his greatness in the 1950s. Was that because the quality of opposition at light heavy wasn't the same as it had been in the 40s or was Moore simply a better, more experienced fighter by the time he won the title? I suspect it's a bit of both.

Either way, I think Moore's achievements at light heavyweight, combined as a contender in the 40s and as a champion in the 50s, stand up to Charles'... except for those three defeats to him.

To return to the point, if you accept that was the best version of Moore Charles beat, then logically Charles is your number 1. If like me, you think Moore got better later on, then it's perfectly acceptable to have Moore as the greatest light heavyweight. And that's where I stand on this one!

 

How about Jeff Clarke? he never gets a mention. From a 1909 loss to Dixie Kid to a loss in 1916 to Langford, he had 136 fights of which he lost four times, to the heavyweight big three, McVea, Langford and Jeannette and also to Harry Wuest, which he immediately avenged. the Joplin's Ghost wins include Luther McCarty, Langford, Jeannette, Battling Levinsky, Kid Norfolk, Battling Jim Johnson, Jim Barry, and many more including a draw with Harry Wills.