Rocky Marciano's so called punching power

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Shawn Kemp, Jun 27, 2013.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    The title of the thread not withstanding, I think everyone knows Marciano had very good power.
     
  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    In the way that a championship Cokkell fight was worth a lot more money to Marciano in America or the UK than a championship fight with Nino Valdes was in America or Cuba.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    On what evidence do you base this statement?
     
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  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    On the evidence that Valdes as the headliner never really drew the crowds. 1500 watched him fight Jack Flood.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    So 1,500 would be there to watch him challenge Marciano for the world title?
    Are you saying Valdes would not draw as well as Cockell in the US?
    That the number one contender who had beaten Ezzard Charles would not draw as big a crowd as Cockell whom the US press had universally panned as a no hoper?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Wow. So in your view, if the black fighter didn’t fight as sensational as the greatest fighter of all time, he didn’t have a right to complain about not getting a title shot? I hope that is not your stance


    FYI Charles and Moore were sensational and Lesnevhich knew it and the press knew if, and Gus wouldn’t go near them. Both would have mopped the floor with him in 46. Charles-Moore III should have been a title defense for Charles!!!

    There is a reason Charles never became light H champion yet he’s rated the best light heavyweight of all time
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
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  7. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Head of the IBC Jim Norris told Weill he wanted Marciano vs Valdes in February 1955 in Miami where he said “Valdes would draw very well”

    So your statement is dubious. Cokkell didn’t draw well at all in America. He was short, fat, and slow and couldn’t punch . The press laughed at him.

    Cokkell was chosen for one reason only, it had noting to do with his drawing power. The American press laughed at Cokkell. They said he had no hands. He was chosen as a test run for Marcianos nose. No other reason. Weilll knew a fat stubby armed, short weak puncher stood no chance to threaten Marcianos nose, but a 6’3 big puncher with an 80” reach was a threat.
     
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yes and that’s a good part of the reason why Cokkell was chosen over Valdes. He drew more at the box office. If there isn’t much difference between number one and number two (like The governor of the NYSAC said) it can come down to who has the best drawing power at the gate. Sometimes that’s how the cookie crumbles.

    The Mathews fights were outdoor events in Stick Stadium. Big gates. The fight Cokkell had in South Africa was a good gate. He sold out Earl’s Court and outdoor headliners at white city too. All big gates. He was champion of the British Empire, a bigger territory than Cuba. I imagine this was factored in as well as poor turn outs for Nino Valdes fights.
     
  9. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Nope not true. Jim Norris, Head of the IBC wanted to stage Valdes Marciano in Miami’s in February of 1955 because “Valdes is the only logical contender and would draw very well in Miami” (New York Times October)

    But I guess Jim Norris wasn’t important huh?

    Weill balked and chose cokkell for 1 reason only....he was a short, soft fighter and easy task for Marciano to test his nose out. Weill didn’t want to send Marciano in the ring with a 6’3 big puncher with an 80” reach who could open up that nose.

    You’re grasping for straws, re writing history, spinning words...and it’s all hilarious
     
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Pittsburgh COURIER July 24, 1954-

    Hurricane Had Color, Nothing More . . Approximately a year ago, Nino Valdes, the Cuban heavyweight contender, was hailed in fistic circles as "the him as the "most likely to succeed." He then went on, to the delight of the prognosticators, to beat Ezzard Charles, proving to one and all that he was no flash In the pan; about as good a heavyweight as you will find these days. . Last week! Nino, who speaks much Spanish and very little English, established himself as the leading candidate for the most cherished award they give out in boxing. He did more for boxing in 1954 than any other boxer - when he knocked out Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson in 2 "minutes and 35 seconds of the second round. ' At the end of the year, Nino will receive our vote as the individnal who "did the most for boxing in 1954."

    Hurricane Jackson had to be disposed of . . . and Valdes . was equal to the task. That does not mean, of course, that the Hurricane who was just a breeze for nino should have his citizenship papers confiscated; that he should be put on a barge and shipped out to sea. Jackson definitely added some color and drama to the sock scene before, he ran into trouble . Valdes, to be specific. Jackson never has been a fighter of - championship caliber, despite the fact that he disposed of Clarence Henry, Charley Norkus, Dan Bucceroni Rex Layne, But he did get the tub thumpers to beating their drums and excited - some people in a mild manner because he possessed the one thing so many fighters lack today that indefinable thing they call "color." He was an unorthodox campaigner." He reintroduced the "double" uppercut and baffled inept opponents by leading with his right, and, also, gave us a new version ot the old "Jersey Joe Walcott shuffle." Yes, indeed, he was colorful . . . but the scholars of the prize fighting business knew all along that he couldn't fight; that eventually he would run into a guy like Valdes and get flattened.

    In a way, It is too bad that Jackson can't fight. If he had all the necessary qualities, Hurricane could definitely add some excitement to the drab heavyweight picture. Instinctively, he is a. ham at heart. Tommy loves to be in the limelight, thrives on publicity and public adulation. He should be a bona fide member of the Actors' Guild. ' - . He has a knack of coming up with delightful expenses after suffering defeat. Following his loss to Willie Troy, for example, he growled: ; "You can blame this defeat on my mother, not me. My mother is the cause of it. I wanted to go out with .girls. She wouldn't let me, made me stay at home. That upset me, caused me mental anguish. " How can a - guy fight if he can't go out with girls?" The answer to that, of course, Is . . . how can a guy fight if he does go out with girls, especially before a fight? . . . No one would be so blase as to reprimand the Hurricane for wanting to go out with girls. That is dandy recreation. But you don't do it before a big fight. Some how, girls have a way of distracting young men who should have their minds on future business. In this case, Hurricane's future business included a champion by the flame of Rocky Marciano. But that was Jackson's excuse for defeat girls. That was the most far - fetched explanation for inglorious defeat any athlete, or fighter, has ever given out In the entire history of the sports world. There were those, however, who were willing to accept it. They decided to give him a real chance. . He was matched with Nino, a big heavyweight who does not hold the feminine portion of the population in such exalted esteem. Valdes belted him out in less than two rounds. Jackson couldn't blame that on his mother or the girls. Before the fight they shipped him up in the New York mountains and made sure that he was trained thoroughly. He was in perfect physical condition when the bell rang. There was only one thing wrong with the Hurricane he just couldn't fight. Valdes Could Give Marciano Trouble ... That victory made Valdes only logical contender for heavyweight title. The International Boxing Club will match him with the winner of the Marciano - Ezzard Charles return bout in September. All Nino has to do now is sit around and ignore the girls, wait for his big opportunity. He insists that he can beat Marciano. "I'll knock him out inside of four rounds," he said after disposing of Jackson. "Marciano can't take my punch." That, of course,, is the prediction of a fighter flushed with victory. After belting Jackson out, Nino was of the opinion he could beat anyone in the house, like the great John L. Sullivan. , But it won't be that easy.Marciano has Charles in the impending return bout which is considerably tougher and dangerous than the likes of Hurricane Jackson. But Valdes is the kind of fighter who could give Rocky trouble. He Is big, takes a good punch and can throw bombs well. He could be the man they have been looking for!

    It isn't likely that Charles will beat Marciano in September, or any other month, for that matter. Ezzard lacks the heft and power. As a, boxer, he has the edge. But boxers are Marciano's meat. - Valdes, on the other hand, is a puncher. No one knows right now how good a puncher, but he is definitely a member of that school. He is tall and could keep the ever - charging Marciano off with his stiff left jab. Meantime, Hurricane Jackson should take stock, decide' that perhaps his mother isn't to blame, after all. In other words . . . there's no place like home, Tommy.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Where he was champion of is irrelevant, I want proof from you that he would outdraw the number one contender in a title match with the champion.
    Cockell was chosen as an easy touch , a run out for the repaired nose .The press gave him no chance whatsoever! This is getting ridiculous.

    NB Sicks ,[not Sticks] Stadium had a top capacity of 11,000 when Cockell fought Mathews.
     
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  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    You can lead a horse to the water, but you can’t make it drink.

    Chokelab is building a case on nothing.

    Facts

    NBA and RING rated Valdes number 1 when Marciano-Cockell was signed

    Valdes was named NBAs “most logical contender” and IBC named Valdes “Only logical contender”

    Cockell was 5’10 with a 71” reach without a punch

    Valdes was 6’3 with an 80” reach with a big punch

    Valdes beat number 1 rated and former world champion Ezzard Charles, and knocked out number 4 rated Hurricane Jackson, and knocked out number 6 rated Euro champ Heinz Neuhaus

    Cockell defeated number 4 rated Lastarza by decision and number 9 rated Matthews by decision


    Maybe 1 day, chokelab will figure it out
     
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  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Valdes was not obviously superior to Cokkell in 1955. There was just one place difference in them in the ratings and the two were lumped together as likely opponents to Marciano. Nobody would be “lumping them together” if one was more outstanding than the other.

    NewYork fans had seen nino disappoint in the James J Parker fight. Slow hand clapped from the ring. It was awful. The Jackson win was better but it was only Jackson, a tv star who had blown fights before. In two fights with Archie Mcbride Nino was not considered superior. No wonder Nino was not considered superior to the #2 contender. The wins in Europe so far as paying fans in America were concerned were just wins in Europe. They never saw them. It helped his ranking that’s all.

    Cokkell was on a long run. And winning Stadium fights on the west coast. The fights went down well there and He beat Lastarza right after Rocky did. Don was a big underdog against Rocky and so would have been Nino.

    It’s amazing to think Cokkell was less of an underdog to Rocky as Walcott had been to Louis!
     
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Little between Marciano and ****ell for next opponent
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...Term=valdes ****ell &searchLimits=


    Marciano says the one who brings the most money is next (which is probably the truth)

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...Term=valdes ****ell &searchLimits=

    Robert Christenbury says there is little between them
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...Term=valdes ****ell &searchLimits=

    Valdes Threatening to pull out of the ****ell fight because he wansnt allowed to wear white pants (second thoughts?)
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...Term=valdes ****ell &searchLimits=

    Marciano himself suggests that Moore might be better than both of them
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...Term=valdes ****ell &searchLimits=

    this one suggests that ****ell Valdes showed that ****ell was washed up more than Valdes had improved.
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...Term=valdes ****ell &searchLimits=
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Quack quack quack!