Rocky Marciano's so called punching power

according to whom? This is powder room talk.

and this is not relevant. Happened years earlier. This was before Don hit his stride. It’s like Walcott losing to Abe Simon years earlier.

even though this is a hindsight list, you have missed out Archie Moore. If you include Moore (and presumably you rate Moore higher than three of the guys he beat that are on that list) this puts Nino into the Don Cokkell group dosnt it?

why have you rated Cokkell last behind two guys he beat?

 

No Valdes is not lumped in with those 3.

Cockell was in his prime when he fought slade. Don never really hit any impressive stride during his career



Here’s an accurate rankings of the era

Tier 1
1. Rocky Marciano
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Jersey Joe Walcott
4. Archie Moore
5. Harold Johnson
6. Joe Louis

Tier 2

7. Rex Layne
8. Clarence Henry
9. Nino Valdes
10. Hurricane Jackson
11. Bob Baker
12. Bob Satterfield
13. John Holman

Tier 3

14. Roland Lastarza
15. Cesar Brion
16. Heinze Neuhaus
17. Karel Sys
18. Earl Walls
19. Dan Bucceroni
20. Don Cokkel


Lastarza comes in at number 14. Cokkell barely makes the top 20, and kid Matthews doesn’t even make it

Henry baker Valdes Satterfield come in the top 12

 

Again, people, Matthews and Lastarza never did anything but get their names associated with Marciano. And because the name Marciano can never be more than inches from your quivering lips, you also keep hearing Matthews and Lastarza and convince yourself that those two were actual entities in the division.

Sorry, that was not the case. And beating them does not promote ****ell into legitimacy as a heavyweight title challenger.

 

Here is something on Lastarza from a Philadelphia Boxing Historian Chuck Hanson I spoke with


"I just watched the LaStarza - Rocky Jones 2 match from Eastern Parkway Arena and I believe that LaStarza was the most benign heavyweight contender I ever saw. Too much emphasis on LaStarza is given to the 1st Marciano fight. Are we forgetting that this was Rocky's first fight back after the traumatic events of the Vingo fight which shook Rocky to the point where he pondered quitting boxing.
Of course Rocky would be somewhat gun shy and less aggressive. Roland in his 37 previous fights was carefully matched (Brion being the only fringe contender) before they took a gamble with what his board of directors thought would be a timid Marciano. After that fight Roland avoided and refused matches that were offered to him against Charles, Clarence Henry, Baker, Coley Wallace, and Bivins, when a victory over any one of these would establish Roland as a live contender. His win over faded Rex Layne and dull return bout victory over lightheavy Jones and a decent win on Bucceroni, after losing their first match, should never have made him eligible for the title match but Weill knew that Rocky would destroy him and the fight would draw good money in New York so the bout was made.
Rocky Jones was a close friend of mine, and he told me before his second fight with LaStarza he was approached by Jimmy (Amato) White, a contact man for the IBC and managers guild, and was told "We don't want any of that stuff you pulled in Akron."
After the second round Rocky was told in his corner to "ease up." Roland won a very careful, play safe decision. LaStarza's career post Marciano II could be best described as "hapless."

 

One is not relevant to the other. Different era, different champ,different top ten.

 

Horrible horrible agenda spinned drivel, but what else should we expect from you, it’s your MO

Of course if we were to take the NBA ratings at the time Patterson London was SIGNED you would see London did not deserve a title shot coming off a loss.

NBA ratings March 1959

Champion: Floyd Patterson

1. Ingemar Johansson
2. Nino Valdes
3. Henry Cooper
4. Zora Folley
5. Willie Pastrano
6. Eddie Machen
7. Brian London

London’s loss too Cooper moved him down to 7th.

London was a gimmick of a title defense, a handpicked softer opponent while much better higher rated fighters like Machen Cooper Folley and Valdes continued to wait in line.

Cooper and Patterson could not come to terms, so instead of fighting the next highest rated challenger (Valdes)..d Amato signs to fight the number 7 contender who was short slow and easy to hit

 

Very accurate post, choke will try to spin your words because he has an agenda we are all aware of

 

Harris was undefeated at heavyweight with wins over Baker, Pastrano, Besmanoff, and Norkus. The pastrano win was far better than anything Cokkell had. baker past his prime was still a better scalp than cokkells win over a washed up lastarza. Throw in cokkells retched knockout losses to Aaron Wilson and Jimmy Slade and Harris was the more deserving.

It’s funny, both these men were number 2 and 3. Valdes was number 1, twice, and reached number 2 status in early 59...yet I never hear you defend him about getting a title shot.

I think your agenda is you only defend the smallish heavyweights and like to persecute the larger heavyweights, you also always side with the European fighter over the American. You also are anti big punchers, you don’t believe punchers get avoided because of their big time power

 

Yes. Just like I said. It’s still powder room talk. Nothing official about it.

 

well that would be because I observe the timeline and understand the business of boxing. Sure Nino qualified for a shot but the timing really didn’t work out and he was never going to make more money for a champion than the guys who did get a shot. It’s like arguing about two men who were NEVER good enough to become champion. Only one gets the chance but it dosnt mean the other guy was robbed of becoming champion. They’re both weak.

no I don’t rate smallish heavyweights over bigger ones, I just defend the legitimacy of their position at the time. If you think it’s okay to rewrite a Big dollop of history after the event with the benefit of hindsight I don’t believe there is anything wrong in challenging it. Valdes was better than Cokkell. But don’t tell me anyone knew this before they fought. There was enough negatives about Valdes to relegate demand for him as a challenger as there was for Cokkell. The Parker stinker, the knockout to Joe Louis in an exhibition, the five losses during the reign of Marciano.. Cokkell isn’t better but you won’t aknowledge that Nino was behind Archie Moore, just like Cokkell was.

I am not anti big puncher at all. My favourite fighter is Joe Louis.

 

It’s coming from rocky Jones himself. If Jones testified this under oath you still wouldn’t believe him?

 

I respect your list, but "Matthews doesn't even make it" doesn't alter the fact that he beat your #7 man (and also your #2 man when both were aging and at the end of the trail). So Matthews is 2-0 against your top ten and Henry is 0-2.

#7 Layne holds wins over the #2 & #3 men.
#9 Valdes beat the #2 & #10 men
#10 Jackson beat the #2, #7, #8, & #11 men (that includes Henry) Hard to see why he isn't ahead of Henry, at least on accomplishment. You high rating of Henry has to be mainly on potential. Henry seems to fit more confortably at #10.

Lots of other things to question, though. Parker KO'd Neuhaus, drew with Walls, and beat Jimmy Slade. He should be ahead of Neuhaus, at least. Neuhaus seems very weak on this list. Getting a draw in his first fight with Layne seems to have been controversial even in Germany off the UPI report quoted by box rec.

Ironically, considering your position, LaStarza looks decent. He has a split decision loss & a decent 2nd try with the #1 guy, and has wins over #7, #15, and #19.

 

As I know you are well aware, it isn't only whom you beat but when you beat them.

 

Matthews defeated Layne in 1952 and Layne came out of that year ranked as the #2 contender.

 

Layne fought Marciano in 51, prior to that he had 1 defeat on his sheet.After Rocky he had a further 11.My opinion is he was never the same fighter after the Marciano fight.Please don't cite his "win"over Charles as evidence to the contrary, its widely beloved to have been a robbery,
As to Layne being ranked number two,the fact that Cokkell achieved the same ranking in that era illustrates the value of it!