Ali vs skilled super heavyweights

Ken Norton, 6 foot 3 and 218 pounds, was hell for Ali. He outboxed and out-muscled him. Guys like Lewis, Vlad, etc. were so much bigger and overall better than Norton. Liston would be a TINY heavyweight today. Foreman would be small-ish. Joe Frazier was an insect and Ali couldn't hurt him or put him down. Alfredo Evangelista went 15 with Ali, ffs.
Yeah, I know what you'll say: the mythological, cruiser-slapping Ali wouldn't have had such troubles. No, he was too busy then having trouble with tiny Doug Jones, saved by the bell and Dundee against scrawny Cooper, and going 15 with spindly Terrell and primitive Chuvalo.

I'm so sick of the Ali myth. Ali wouldn't 'roll' any of the guys mentioned. Most likely his movement would trouble them a few rounds, but he couldn't hurt them, and over time superior weight and strength would play out. Ali could probably win one of four in such a series.

 

You're very hard on Ali

 

Yeah, your right. He sucked ..

 

Ali had trouble with good jabbers at all stages of his career.

Doug Jones, Kenny Norton, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, and as an older guy, Larry Holmes. He was also cut by Bob Foster's jab ( I think it was his jab ), though Foster was harldy good at heavyweight.

In the above fights, he bearly beat Doug Jones 6-4 on points, IMO lost the series 2-1 vs Norton, was behind on cards vs Lyle until landing a bomb in the 11th, should have lost to Jimmy Young, and did not win a single minute of any round vs. Holmes.

Hopeully this is proof enough that Ali had trouble with good jabbers at all stages of his career.

Lewis, Wlad, Vitali, and Joshua IMO have better reaches, more power, and in most cases comparable jabs to the above fighters who gave Ali fits. They also hit harder in almost all cases.

Ali's going to be in a tough fights.

Looking closely at Ali, he's really not a shut down type of boxer with defense they way Mayweater can be. He's more of a surivuror type who carried his power knew how to keep himself fresher in the later rounds. While Ali was almost always the taller man with the longer reach in his fights, the tables are turned on him in the matches vs.super heavyweights, plus he has to resect their power at all times.

To win these matches, I think Ali needs to be the agressor, a role he wasn't always comfortable in.

 

Ali could beat all these guys I believe. Ali is more skilled and not much smaller then these guys. His hand speed would be much better, his coordination was better and did have power too to hurt these guys. Lewis would be his best challenge of the bunch. I think Ali would be able to get the better of Lewis though even during his comeback. Lewis was too easy to hit for guys who he didn't have a huge reach advantage on and could keep up with him on there feet. The Klitschko's I think could trouble Ali a bit but Ali would likely beat them. Like Mildenberger I think the Klitschko who I do believe were both better then Mildenberger would trouble Ali but most likely I see Ali prevailing stopping them late whether hes on his toes moving or standing his ground. Joshua I think would be something like Ron Lyle and some of the other punchers Ali faced. Ali would let him punch away at times but control the fight land when he wanted to and probably eventually stop Joshua if not outbox him to a decision.

 

A lot of this depends on whether you believe that the 60s and 70s produced *significantly* more skilled fighters than today.

10 years ago, it was common in the boxing community to believe that the 60s and 70s "Golden Age" had such an advantage. Now, a decade later, it's very interesting to see this attitude recede a bit, probably due to the influx of Millennials. They're challenging the Baby Boom and GenX fans who grew up in Ali's shadow.

In defense of the Ali fans, a 60s/70s golden age is possible. We know in kickboxing, for example, that the smaller, third world fighters from Thailand regularly steamroll bigger Western athletes. There's simply a deeper, better talent pool in Thailand. 60s/70s America may have a similar advantage over the modern boxing world, but I think the burden of proof is shifting onto the Ali advocates to prove it.

 

lol

Ray Mercer, was what, 6'2 and Lewis barely beat him. In the second fight with an aging Holyfield, Lewis barely won despite the fact that Evander Holyfield could only fight in spurts. And Holyfield was a blown up cruiserweight.

Rahman and McCall were similar size to Ali and they both ko'd Lewis. Neither one of them were big punchers.

There is no Ali myth. Ali would make a mockery out of a slow Lewis. Win one in a four series? Haha. If a blown up past his prime cruiserweight can give Lewis all he could handle, Ali will make a fool out of him.

 

You cannot seriously bring the Holmes fight up when Ali was already showing signs of Parkinson's. I mean come on.

Lewis struggled vs Ray Mercer, and not exactly the best version. He barely edged a past his prime Holyfield in their second fight. The same Holyfield was struggling vs Ruiz a year later.

Norton had an awkward style for Ali. Bigger slower fighters like Lewis and Vitali are not going to trouble him the same way. He will move in an out and make them look foolish.

 

The fact that a 42 year old Foreman staggered Holyfield, (and the old Foreman was not the same monster the young version was), shows that the younger Foreman would have likely stopped him. Not to mention that Foreman ko'd the guy who went 1-1 vs Holyfield.

Holmes beat Mercer while being in his 40's easier than a prime Lewis beat him.

If that doesn't prove that the 60's and 70's were better, then nothing does.

Lewis and Vitali and Wladamir NEVER beat a single heavyweight as good as the 1974 Foreman. Not one. Not even close. And that version of Foreman would retire both Lewis and Wlad with their iron chins. Vitali, due to his chin, would stand a chance but even he likely loses.

I will say it again, there is not a single name on Lewis's resume that is as good as Foreman, Liston or even Frazier. Not one.

 

Ali had a ridiculous amount of trouble with the great Liston jab. We all remember that yeah. Couldn't beat a jabber if they weren't allowed to throw right hands.

 

I would love for people who doubt Ali could beat these guys to explain why they lost to or struggled vs smaller guys

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Ray Mercer was shorter than Ali. McCall and Rahman weren't any bigger. And a washed up blown up cruiserweight gave him all he could handle the second time around.

If Lewis's size is an advantage, how exactly is it? He is too slow. You cannot compare him to an awkward boxer like Norton, nor a slick small evasive type like Young or Jones.

Wlad lost to Brewester for god's sakes. And i am sure people will come up with excuses but there is no excuse, he had ample experience at the time. How big was Brewester?

Its interesting that the "smaller" decent quality heavies gave these guys a much harder time than plundering slowish guys like Michael Grant. Yet the myth that these guys are too big for Ali persists in the minds of some of these guys.

And lol at brining up Holmes. Holmes was far faster as Lewis or Wlad. Look at Holmes's footspeed and compare it to Vitali, Lewis or Wlad. No comparison. Not to mention Ali was showing signs of slurred speech before, he was already in the early Parkinson's stage.

 

Terrell had a very good jab himself - he absolutely dominated Ali with the jab and follow up right hand. If only he were taller than Ali, he might have won the points decision ey?

 

Zactly

 

Was Liston in there to win? Imo this was Ali’s best performance.

 

Everyone has trouble with," good jabbers".
The best jabber Ali faced when near prime was Terrell, he didn't win a round against Ali.
Liston had a great jab.
Opponents as tall or taller than Ali
Lyle
Foreman
Terrell
Williams
Nortonx3
Dunn
Bugnerx2
Wepner
Foster
Mathis
Lavorante
Sabedong
Esperti

Foreman,Terrell,Williams,Norton,Bugner,Foster,Sabedong.
All had longer reaches than Ali