Primo Carnera's ability

Your arguments are fundamentally dishonest.

 

OK - and how does that make Carnera's jab great, again?

Glad to read it. You'll understand if I had my doubts...

Firstly, I didn't specify the 1930s.
Secondly, are you really attempting to use one fight, as an example of how an entire division might not have been shallow for a given period?


...The Descent continues...

Guesswork, on your part - and I might have called it a nice try, if it weren't for the fact you were squeezing Carnera's prime into less than 30 months. Even then, what you're actually suggesting means that, other than Sharkey, the prime Carnera (according to choklab) only managed to beat one other ranked opponent in that time, who happened to be less than 190lbs.

Legendary...

 

Why would you expect differently? It's about the opponent, not just the size.
Cunningham is Furys smallest opponent. And he caught him the best.

Sharkey was the champion when Carnera knocked him out.
If he's not a meaningful opponent, then you must've taken the goal posts home with you.

All above average, for a naturally large SHW.

Because he was used by corrupt people.
Still managed to improve and succeed.
Nobody to my knowledge has ever accused Primo of knowing about, or being involved in his any of his alleged fixed fights.

 

Yall gon make me do it

 

It's also interesting to note that it changed the complexion of the contenders for the title, at the time. I have read somewhere that Godfrey was a shoo-in for a shot (although, I cannot recall the report I saw this in). After the Carnera debacle, Godfrey was not only suspended, but also only paid half his purse - and was ruled out, as a contender.

 

This is laughable...

 

This is where you can tell you are stumped.

 

You are fundamentally wrong to believe that. You have no proof of dishonesty or answer to anything I have said on this thread. Nor can you disagree with anything I have said. Just another example of hitting a wall again isn’t it?

 

Really?

And, just when I thought it couldn't get any funnier...



The Des Moines Register (Des Moines, Iowa)
02 Nov 1935, Sat
Page 7


Carnera Stops
Walter Neusel

Bleeding Eye Brings
End in Fourth
----------------------

NEW YORK, N. Y. - Old Primo Carnera lumbered out of the boxing boneyard Friday night to score a technical knockout over Walter Neusel, rugged German Heavyweight, in the fourth round of what was billed a 10-rounder. Neusel had to quite when he collided with Carnera's elbow and opened a dangerous cut over his right eye.
A gallery of nearly 15,000 spectators saw the abbreviated battle, which marked Carnera's since he was jolted into the ranks of the second-raters by Joe Louis' deadly left hook here last summer.


Wins Every Round.

The end came after 2:23 of one-sided milling in the fourth. They were slugging away at close range when Carnera, apparently trying to get set for a right hand belt,

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. Blood flowed over Neusel's face and

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just as his manager, Paul Damski, started into the ring with a towel.
There were no knockdowns , but it was a slaughter from the start. Carnera won every round as he pleased and twice--in first and second heats--seemed headed for a quick K.O.


Spotted 67 Pounds.

Neusel who spotted the Carnera 67 pounds - 201 against 268 - didn't have a chance. A wild swinger with a lot of courage

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, he was a perfect target for Carnera's right.......


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The Pittsburgh Press (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
02 Nov 1935, Sat
Page 8


Carnera-Neusel 'Battle'
Runs Second to Prelims

NEW YORK, N. Y., Nov. 2—I’m glad I didn't go to the Garden last night to see the Carnera-Neusel fight (“

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sneers the colleague peering over my shoulder).
'I went for the preliminaries.

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.
But the other bouts—they brought together the cream of young Gotham heavyweight talent, each eager to make a showing for an ultimate chance at the Brown Bomber. None of them could
have whipped Joe Louis on the performance turned in last night, but the card sufficed as an experimental laboratory for the opponent Louis may meet within the year.


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The Republic
(Columbus, Indiana)
02 Nov 1935, Sat
Page 6


CARNERA STOPS
NEUSEL IN FOURTH

New York, Nov. 2. (2P)—Primo Carnera, Italian heavyweight trying for a comeback, emerged from the smoky haze of Madison Square Garden last night with a technical knockout victory over Walter Neusel, the blond German heavy-weight.
Refuslng to be floored under a barrage of ponderous, sweeping lefts,

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threw up his hands and quit in the fourth round after Camera inflicted a deep cut over his eye with
a

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.
As blood spurted from the cut, Neusel’s seconds jumped into the ’ring with a towel,

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….

 

Nope, its called ennui.

 

As I said he quit!

 

Your question was what results Carnera had in terms of success in the era.

I picked these fighters as examples of men who were contenders in that era but not champions.

My argument was that while Carnera was not in the tier of fighters represented by Sharkey Schmeling and Baer, he was probably better than pretty much everybody else in that era.

Outside of these three men, you could make an argument for very few having surpassed him.

Therefore he clearly had tangible success in the division.

That is just one of the examples that is out there.

The point is that you can find people who criticized his technical ability, but you can also find people who praised it.

That means that neither side of the argument can claim to have contemporary opinion on their side.

Why would you expect somebody rendering an opinion on his technical ability to comprehensively and convincingly break it down?

Where can I find such a breakdown of say Tyson Fury today, and why would I bother to read it when I can just watch him?

Even Joe Louis picked up a loss fighting in that era, and he is arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time, so if that is a weak era, then it would prove that even the weakest eras are not that weak.

It would prove that the best challengers in weak eras, were still a threat to strong champions.

It is plain to see from the film really.

At the time of the Gains fight he has decent boxing ability, but he does not make effective use of his reach.

He boxes as if he were a medium sized heavyweight, in the manner of say Buddy Baer.

After he started campaigning full time in America Abe Attell was brought in to train him, and by the time of the second Sharkey fight he is using the jab more effectively, staying on the outside and quickly switching to the uppercut when his opponent moves in on him.

I submit that Attell simply developed Carnera in the logical manner for a fighter of his physical dimensions.

Lets look at the timeline:

Carnera starts fighting in the USA full time in July of 1932, two months after the Gains fight.

I am not sure exactly when Attell became his trainer, but clearly all of his key career wins happen after he started fighting in the States.

He did lose to Poreda in August of 1932, but the decision was widely considered a robbery, and in any event Poreda was ranked at the time.

He starts beating people who are actual contenders towards the end of 1932, and starts beating top contenders in early 1933.

I therefore conclude that his prime started after the Gains fight, and quite possibly after the Poreda fight, in which he probably deserved the win in any event.

No but you can probably get a pretty good idea of how a modern super heavyweight would approach such a fight, from how they engage men of similar height and reach.

Carnera was very successful against men of his own size, who were a tier below him as contenders.

I think that Baer and Louis smashed him because they were exceptional finishers, and that was the kind of fighter that he ultimately didn't have an answer for.

 

Indeed... ...and the preceding moments, as described by choklab's unnamed writer...

..."Soon afterward Primo landed a hard left hook to the head that opened a deep gash above the Germans right eye and left him clearly stunned."

...just didn't happened that way.

Neusel being considered an "elite fighter" is more than chuckle-worthy, in it's own right. choklab just adds lots of icing to the cake.

 

Neusel was certainly considered an elite level fighter at his peak.

I don't see how this can be disputed.

 

Dishonest