Rocky Marciano's so called punching power

Cockell was as weak a puncher as they get. Neuhaus hit much harder. He knocked out Johnny Williams who laughed at Cockells best punches

But since cockell fought Marciano, you feel the need to prop him up.

 

Since cockell fought Marciano, he feels the need to defend him


Remember Marciano fans are very sensitive about his record and feel the need to constantly overrate west coast hype jobs like Matthews, Roly Poly 3rd rafters like cockell, and average New York golden boys like lastarza

 

Cockell wasn’t a boxer. He was a slow fat plodder without a punch or a chin. And his skills were clearly below par if you study the films. He had no idea how to fight on the outside and didn’t have the reach for it, he only knew how to Crowd on the inside where he didn’t have the power strength or skills to do anything there.

He was a converted southpaw yet you try to claim he had a right hand based on him using it a few times against a 50 year old Farr lol

 

cockell went 22-6 at heavyweight

How would Neuhaus do against Cockells opposition?

Aaron Wilson. Neuhaus beat Sys who knocked out Wilson. Favor Neuhaus here

Jimmy Slade. Neuhaus beat Bucceroni whom beat slade. Toss up.

Roland Lastarza. Neuhaus should definitely be favored over the washed up lastarza who couldn’t beat Charley Norkus.

Harry Kid Matthews. Neuhaus should definitely be favored over a declining Matthews who never beat a contender ever again.

Nino Valdes. Knockout loss.

Marciano. Knockout loss

Kitteone Lave. Neuhaus beat two men bygraves and Williams who beat Lave. Neuhaus is favored here.


Neuhaus goes 26-2 or 25-3 against Cockells completion, depending on if you think he beats slade or not

 

I agree this is often the case, but I dont think E.M. falls into this category.I think he enjoys playing devils advocate.

 

He loves to play devils advocate only regarding Marciano opponents. Had Marciano fought Neuhaus instead of cockell, he would be defending Neuhaus

 

"Neuhaus hit much harder. He knocked out Johnny Williams who laughed at Don C's best punches."

This is true in the same sense that Matthews KO'ing Frank Buford in 3 rounds in their only fight proves he is a superior puncher to Clarence Henry who went 3 full fights and 32 rounds with Buford. If I wanted to be drearily over-the-top I might use language like Buford "laughed" at Henry's punching power.

"you feel the need to prop him up"

To paraphrase Carl Sagan, there are billions and billions and billions of topics I know nothing about or very little. Some aspects of boxing history I know something about, but I would admit I am ignorant of boxing history in general. One thing you learn through life is that there is always far more you do not know than you do about almost anything.

However, there is one topic on which I am the world's number one expert. That is about how I think and how I feel. In presuming to tell me how I feel, you are not only wrong, but reveal yourself to be pretentious and fatuously unaware of your limitations.

 

"his skills were clearly below par"

Depends on what par is. It is equally easy to say Neuhaus' skills were below par.

"you try to claim he had a right hand"

Well, I don't know if he could knock out people with his right, but he threw an overhand right from the shoulder, frequently threw a right to the body, and threw right uppercuts (several times against Marciano). Against Rocky he rarely threw the overhand right. This might be because Marciano was short and fought in a crouch, so Don C or his handlers were worried about counters.

"converted southpaw"

I don't follow the logic that this proves one doesn't have a right hand. LaMotta and Basilio were converted southpaws. So they didn't have a right hand? Interestingly, for me off the films, Don C seems to be more balanced in using both hands than LaMotta, but I don't see this as being much of an issue.

"Farr"

Why is the opponent's age relevant to whether Don C throws a right hand? I think that if we had more film of him we would see more of Don C throwing the same right against younger men.

You have a good point that his lack of height limited him as a jab and move type as did his weight. He had to come in. But I really don't see anything more from Neuhaus, who is the guy we are comparing him to.

 

"Matthews"

other than the three fights with Don C, he had 10 fights after Marciano, and went 9-0-1, beating everyone he fought. I agree that he was slipping, but he clearly can still win against everyone else he met. Maxim, Layne, and Bucceroni never beat anyone at all after losing to Neuhaus. That is just a factual point.

"Neuhaus won the decision. 30 seconds mean nothing."

Correct. 30 seconds means nothing and Neuhaus won the decision in Germany.

"You are taking 30 seconds of film and forming the opinion that Bucceroni looks better."

Yes. He does look better on the 30 seconds of film. If your point is that neither look like world beaters, okay. But Neuhaus doesn't look like much to me either.

"Hurricane Jackson"

Also beat Henry, Baker, Slade, Charles, and Layne. He climbed to the #1 contender position. I don't see why losing, even badly, to the #1 contender proves one can't fight. Baker lost twice to Jackson but beat Valdes twice.

"Did the 13 lb. even matter."

Might show he was not exactly focused. I agree Don C wouldn't have won under any circumstances.

"You make fun of Maxim and Layne for never winning another fight"

I didn't make fun of them. I just pointed out they were at the end of the line and never won another fight. That is a fact.

"Baker beat Slade twice"

Makes my point. Slade beat Jackson and Henry. Henry and Jackson each beat Baker twice. My point is don't go to extremes off selected results.

"Sys knocked out Aaron Wilson who twice beat Don C at heavyweight"

When Don C was a 21 year old light-heavyweight preliminary boy. He continued to fight mainly at light-heavy for two years. Bad defeats, but he was still an 8 round fighter. Wilson was a step up not only in weight but in quality, as he was on a 15 bout winning streak. Then things turned around for Wilson, losing to Johnny Wiliams and then to all kinds of people, including Renato Tontini whom Don C would later defeat. Coley Wallace beat Wilson twice, but Wilson beat Elkins Brothers, who KO'd Wallace.

Williams was stopped by Neuhaus in one fight (their other fight was a draw), but beat Wilson, but Williams was also stopped by Bill Weinberg, who was beaten by LaStarza. Williams also KO'd the light-heavy Hecht, who beat Neuhaus despite giving away 40 lbs.

"Jimmy Slade'

This was certainly a really bad defeat for Don C. If I were trashing him like you are I would focus on this one. Losing to Slade happened to a lot of good fighters, but losing like Don C did certainly is a strong negative.

"There was no power behind his punches"

He scored 38 KO's in 81 fights, and stopped 6 men who appeared at one time or another in The Ring top ten.

*the bottom line for me is that most of these second-tier fighters go on winning streaks and then on losing streaks. Win impressively and then lose horribly. It is always whether the glass is half empty or half full in judging them.

 

"devil's advocate"

I guess that is fair. I sometimes react if I feel a fighter is being unfairly trashed, as I did for Cerdan on the LaMotta thread. Accusing Cerdan of ducking Laurent Dauthuille is a bit much (check Dauthuille's record through 1948).

 

For those interested, a biography on Lew Jenkins just hit the bookshelves. https://www.amazon.com/Boxing-Ring-...qid=1541357479&sr=8-2&keywords=gene+pantalone

 

today’s light heavyweights after rehydration would be 180+~190+,so By today’s standard, marciano a decent light heavyweight puncher at best, couldn’t knock out a old light heavyweight archie moore with series of big swinging punches and one behind the head only managed to wear him out. A good light heavyweight puncher can ko a big bum if he hit him again and again ,david benavidez a super middleweight koed a heavyweight in sparring too, That doesn’t mean light heavyweights hit as hard as heavyweights or can beat any decent heavyweights, a decent sized heavyweight with ok technique decent athleticism and coordination can easily hit much harder than any smaller weight classes. Jones was a tremendous puncher at light heavyweight but when he went up to heavyweight and against a half decent real heavyweight john ruiz ruiz had no problem taking all his best punches flush ,ruiz was knocked out cold by tua under a minute. weight classes exists for a reason, some of these old timers and biased boxer fans are ridiculous.
There’s not much to debate that Marciano is one of if not the most overrated fighter ever , a small light heavyweight by today’s standard yet all these people calling him one of the best heavyweights ever comparing him to all the heavyweights, it’s ridiculous. if you say Marciano is one of the toughest P4P fighter in history no one would have a probelm. same goes for Dempsey or Louis or any fighters around that weight.

 

I dispute this premise.

There it looks like you have a debate on your hands after all!

 

That “old light heavyweight” was one of the best contenders at heavyweight ever. Having the fight go 9 rounds who cares (today it would have been stopped earlier)? I’d match Moore’s wins at Hw against anyone.
He also trained down from A natural weight 210-220 for his Fights. Highly doubt he could make LHW limit and be affective (fought under 180 once and he was said to have felt to weak). Today he would either be 215-230 at Hw or stay in the cruiser range.
It’s amazing that the man w the highest KO percentage at HW is being compared to a LHW puncher lol. Where do these people come from? His contemporaries rated him highly before and after that’s all we need to know.

 

Louis was 6'2 and 207 lbs at his peak for the second Budy Baer fight. Louis was only 8-10 lbs lighter than Holyfield and Tyson at their peaks. Louis also had the power and handspeed to put away super heavyweights, as he aptly demonstrated against Baer, who was 6'5 250 lbs and had an over 80% ko rate.

Louis had comparable handspeed and power to Mike Tyson at his peak but had better stamina, and was even more lethal than Mike due to his greater patience, less looped punches and longer reach.

I am afraid you are mistaken here. Louis demonstrated more than the necessary speed and power to ko much bigger men. Louis wasn't a small guy, and if he were fighting today, he could easily carry 215-220 lbs of muscle without losing much, if any handspeed.