Primo Carnera's ability

Actually these moments are important in that critics cannot dispute the fact that Carnera beat a man who in his next fight drew with the man who knocked out Joe Louis. This shows that at one moment primo beat guys on that level. The other “moments” show the same kind of thing. Beating a man out of sight, crushing him in emphatic fashion -as Primo did against Campolo must show that he is better than that man. If that man Campolo goes on to outpoint Arturo Godoy over 12 rounds after this what does that say? It says that, at the very least, Campolo can win at the 12 round level. And Primo snuffed him out. Totally demolished him on film.

Then if all that were evidence enough, After Primo is himself demolished by Max Baer (and by Joe Louis in just the same way as All the other active world champions Sharkey, Braddock and Max Baer) And legend has it “the cuffs were off for good” Primo still proves he can easily beat a good level fighter like Neusel.

I don’t think these points mean very little. I think they explain a lot. Nothing micro about this.

 

Yes I got that a bit mixed up. Carnera fought Campolo twice, once before being champion and once after losing the title. Even so Primo did flatten Campolo (the Neusel And Uzcudun wins can still eclipse this) -and Campolo still beat Godoy.

I have edited the earlier post.

 

Critics cannot dispute the recorded result, but they can investigate and dispute the worth of the result.

In this case: Firstly, it's a draw. Not a big mark up for Uzcudun, as it is. Secondly, he gets given this draw in his home country; nigh-on in his back yard. Thirdly, the following was not hard to find...

The Evening Herald (Klamath Falls, Oregon)
14 May 1934, Mon
Page 2

Max Schmeling,
Uzcudun Draw
At Barcelona

BARCELONA, Spain, May14 (AP)—Max Schmeling’s second encounter with Paulino Uzcudun had gone into the record books as a draw today but the impression was general he easily had earned a decision he didn't get.
Through 12 rounds, the former heavyweight champion pounded away at Paulino’s face, had the veteran basque bleeding badly from the sixth round on, and outboxed him by a wide margin in the feature match of Montjuick stadium's 160-round boxing carnival yesterday. But at the finish the judges called it a draw.
Ringside critics. giving Schmeling at least eight rounds thought the judges had been unduly influenced by the courageous fight Paulino put up against a younger, more skillful rival…..


Finally, with regards Schmeling/Uzcudun, their next encounter saw Max set the record straight, winning easily. Uzcudun was not on Max Schmeling's level and never was.

Crushing who? Campolo gassed after shooting his bolt in round-1 and then sat down, waiting to be counted out.
It was widely regarded as an ugly, bar room brawl, from which Campolo retired.

The result was vigorously protested. Godoy was not the finished article, at that point, and weighed 182lbs. Campolo went nowhere after that bout and retired after "12 rather tame rounds" against Carnera.

This really isn't the high-level stuff you make it out to be.

Neusel did absolutely nothing after his spanking from Schmeling; couldn't lift the EBU strap and struggled as a domestic level champion. Carnera couldn't even win that one cleanly.

Neusel good? At some point, perhaps, but in what context? And, it is your lack of context that fails your arguments every time, because you choose to ignore it, as a factor.

They are splinters of the whole and make up a fraction of Carnera's record, which is in the main dogged with doubt, due to the helping hand he was obviously given through the bulk of his meaningful career. I don't suggest they mean nothing, but in the scheme of things, they mean little and they are, in themselves, in need of propping up by your little 'join-the-dots' exercise, here... ...he has a 'W' against so and so, but so and so must have been good because he had a 'D' against whatshisname, who would later get the 'W' against another recognizable name.... .... ....

This approach is tiresome and really does not "explain" much, at all.

 

Awesome break down!

 

About now you must feel like Primo did after he was rescued in the Louis fight!

 

precisely. Critics, yourself included, cannot dispute any of it. What does that tell you?

Carnera dosnt have to be an all time great. Nobody is pushing for that. But he is what he was. Carnera was an undisputed world heavyweight champion with decent wins.

It is impossible to say that he Was “barely serviceable as a boxer”. How can that be? He won legitimately against at least four or five good opponents. He certainly fared no worse against Joe Louis than Max Baer or Jack Sharkey. Are you as hostile towards those two? If Joe Louis exposed Carnera how come it took Louis longer to beat him than Max Baer or Jack Sharkey? 11 rounds is also rather a long time to last against Max Baer with a broken ankle if Primo was only “barely serviceable” as a boxer.

If Carnera was entirely beneath Max Schmeling then Primo should not have lasted more than a couple of rounds with any of the guys who took Schmeling the distance. But instead he beat one of the guys.

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The guy was out of it. Legitimately floored and beaten. Then Campolo beat Arturo Godoy!

so because Campolo went nowhere after that result, does that change the fact the official record says Godoy could not stop the man Carnera crushed in two rounds?

A bit like you saying the decision was bad, it was the elbow, the guy quit, the guy was not yet quite prime....cry me a river! None of which proves Primo was out of his depth entirely unworthy or undeserving of making that level. At the very least he made that level and officially won those fights. Official Results over men who beat Max Baer and Arturo Godoy and drew with Max Schmeling. That is not dot joining, it happened.

where as the actual recorded results say everything don’t they?

 

I which fights did he have a " helping hand "? An elaboration is needed.

Carnera fought a wide range of fighters, including some of the top black fighters of the times. While he wasn't going to beat a top puncher, he did beat a good collection of people. W's if you will.

Walter Neusel
Tommy Loughran
Paulino Uzcudun
Jack Sharkey
Ernie Schaaf
King Livinsky
Jack Gross
George Godfrey*
Young Stribling*

Most of the above fighters were ranked in the top ten. Some are in the boxing hall of fame.

Now ask yourself, could a fighter of modest or average ability beat them all? NOPE.

*= DQ win

 

• Anyone including Schaaf here is guilty of necrophilia.
• Jack Gross ?
• The Stribling fights were fixes .
• The Godfrey likely was too.
• Loughran was outweighed by 86 lbs and was a weak puncher.
• Levinsky was an in and outer .
• Carnera lost to Sharkey being floored along the way I think Sharkey went for a swim in the rematch
• Neusel wasn't must to start with.
• Uzcudun wasnt a puncher and he wasnt a boxer, he was a come forward mauler with good chin.
• I see nothing exceptional on that list.

 

The above were all top fighters. Like I said many were in the top ten, and some are in the boxing hall of fame. Those are facts you can not change, and to beat them all, you have be very good.

Schaaf was good. Some medical experts say his death was caused by injuries vs Carnera. He was fine and beat Poreda less than a month ago before facing Carnera.

Can you prove the Stribling fight was a fix?

Jack Gross? Yes, he fought a lot of guys, and ows a win over Godfrey.

I have Carnera vs Godfrey on film, they went it for a while before the low blow landed. Dempsey would never fight Godfrey. Neither would Wills.

Loughran has wins over many top heavies. M. Baer, Stripling, Carpenter, Braddock, and Uzcudun to name a few. No " oaf " is beating him on points. And that is the point of the thread, Carnera has size, but he also a decent athlete with some boxing ability.

Levinksy also has his share of nice wins. Sharkey, Retzlaff, Uzcudun, and Loughran.

Carnera vs Sharkey was legit. I’ve seen the reverse angle of the KO. It was a hard shot. Many here think quite a bit of Sharkey. One can argue Jack Sharkey was Jack Demspey's best win!

Neusel wasn’t much? He was a top ten rated fighter, with wins over Larry Gains, Levinsky, and Loughran.

 

It reminds me that any moron can repeat names, numbers, and letters from a documented list and it tells me that you don't know what critical analysis is.

In regards to this thread and its subject matter, this is the opening line from your opening post…

“

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This and many other posts you have made on the topic of Carnera go way beyond the passive outlook you attempt, above.

I haven't made the claims you suggest I did. So, you have wasted both your time and mine, with the above.^

^This is playground logic that most infants grow out of by the time they are reaching double-figures.

I've seen it. It's ****. But thanks for the laugh, anyway.

We've been over this^ before. I've answered it, but you can't seem to escape your playground logic.

You are joining dots, without context and, in doing so, drawing unreliable conclusions.
What I am doing is providing some context, which you are either unable to comprehend or unwilling to accept.

No. That's whole point but, never mind, because this roundabout has gone on for long enough and you would happily keep going round in circles.


The bottom-line is that Carnera was able to use his considerable size advantage to win against the majority of his opponents. Even then, the confidence level could not have been too high, given the the various fixes put in place to ensure victory and build up his 'Superman' image.

Despite his massive size advantage, Carnera was pushed to the brink by sub-200lb’ers. The 197lbs Levinsky pushed Carnera to an SD, which some felt he deserved. Lasky, giving up 5 stones, pushed Carnera for a NWS. Loughran was outweighed by 6 stones and still pushed Carnera for 15 rounds

He was well-beaten by those with a bit of extra size and skill. Gains, Poereda, Baer, Haynes.

Carnera had no boxing pedigree. He was a physical phenomenon and this is what got him through, in the main, because he had limited boxing ability and there are plenty of references of the same coming from the pundits of the time, including other professional boxers.

I’ve stated it before - Carnera showed a lot of heart and I don’t think anybody would say otherwise. I just think the limits of his ability became clear in bouts with slightly bigger heavies, who were able to deliver power and skills of their own. I base this on finding similarities in sizes and the level of ability possessed by the men who beat Carnera, which I consider to be more than just coincidental.

 

Nope the threads title is Carnera's ability the word oaf is not in it.

Nope.When Loughran beat them
Carpentier wasn't ranked in 1926
Stribling wasn't ranked in1926 or27
Braddock wasn't ranked in1929
Uzcudun wasn't ranked in1931
Baer was number 10 in1931
That's just 1 of those you mentioned.
Neusel wasn't ranked when Carnera beat him.

 

Fine, how many were ranked when Carnera beat them and how many were are in the hall of fame that Carnea defeated?

Tally that one up, if your capable of doing it.

Loughran was ranked #2 in 1933, and did not lose until he meet Carnera in 1934 so its very likely Carnera beat the #2 ring rated opponent! That's how highly he was thought of.

By 1935, Loughran slipped to #5 overall, annually speaking.

 

he was well beaten by Haynes and Baer. No shame in Baer. Haynes he was in poor health with both times. Gains primo was outboxed in a boxing lesson from a very good boxer but again, no real shame. Lots of good fighters have been outpointed or technically exposed at certain times during their development. Bowe against Tubbs, Marciano against Lowrey and Lastarza, Patterson against Maxim etc. The worst beatings Primo took as a relevant fighter was from Louis, Baer and Haynes. That’s really it. The Poreda fight I will need more information on. I doubt he was outclassed and beaten out of sight though.

Primos boxing pedigree as the finished article is right up there with most of the best Superheavyweights. Bowe was a better inside fighter, Douglas a better technician but at his best Primo was probably just as effective. He was more suited to fighting bigger men his own size. More suited to now than then. I feel primo looked better against other Super heavyweights.

the slightly bigger heavyweights were Santa, Campolo and Godfrey types. Those guys were not a problem for Carnera. Gains and Sharkey outboxed him without beating him up. It was only Louis and Baer that massacred him so I don’t think that’s any real embarrassment unless you believe a champion of Carneras size is supposed to beat that kind of special talent- which I think is unreasonable. Haynes beat a cripple. I believe there is evidence (that you are welcome to unearth) that suggests Carnera should not have been in the ring for fights at that point.

 

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This is a great sequence which describes Carnera’s career

 

Putting Carnera in with a peak Bowe results in a dragged out beating for Primo. Bowe might have been a bit casual in his approach, but his offensive arsenal would have made Baer's look quite ordinary - and I say this, having a good deal of regard for Baer's power and ability to deliver it, as unorthodox as he could be.

When Bowe was tuned and fired up, his opponent was more than likely going to get done over. I can half-imagine Carnera's awkward approach, in trying to grapple Bowe, with outstretched arms, and getting planted with an overhand right - Carnera's going to kiss the canvass, perhaps get up - then, rinse and repeat. Anything on the inside, is Bowe's too. There's no way Carnera can win this. He has nothing to beat Bowe with.

Think Gonzalez in his losing effort to Bowe - add a few rounds, double the beating and there's an approximation of what would happen to Carnera.

No - the slightly bigger Heavyweights, with skills, were Sharkey, Gains, Poreda, Baer, Louis and Haynes (twice). Haynes' should be given full credit for his destruction of Carnera in their first bout. There's no evidence of ailment, at this point. As far as I can tell, the 'temporary leg paralysis' Carnera suffered from, in the second Haynes bout, did not reoccur in his subsequent meeting with Di Meglio. After the Di Meglio bout, Carnera was taken ill, with a kidney complaint.

Levinsky, a touch smaller, being shorter and coming in at sub-200lbs came very close to beating Carnera. Likewise, Sub-190lbs Lasky came close and little Loughran pushed a 270lb Carnera all the way.

Neither Campolo nor Santa were skilled boxers. The Godfrey bout is inconclusive.