Question to those who claim Tyson Fury is still lineal champ. Would he still be if Lennox returned?

Yes by the standards used today, apparently Lewis would still be lineal champ, because he never lost the title. Retiring does not matter if you come back.

 

The whole lineal thing is so up for discussion that the "purity" that some fans boast about is comparable to the driven over yellow snow. In Fury's case it's depending on what some people believe about linealship.
If you believe it can only be won and lost in the ring, then there hasn't been a lineal champion in any weight for ages.
If you believe that retirement and then starting a new "lineage" is a legit way, then Fury isn't lineal anymore as he retired.
That's why the TRBR doesn't have Fury as lineal by the way.
Then, if you twist it into that there hasn't been a new lineage since he retired and returned, or he was just talking out of his ass again as usual when he said he retired, then you can call him the "lineal heavyweight champion".
But then what's it all worth? The BBBoC had to conveniently place his 2 year retroactive PED ban after he had won the Wlad fight instead of at the moment he got caught (against Hammer), to make sure his championship wouldn't have been erased entirely. Would people still have called Fury the lineal champion if both fights were turned into NC's?
Is it more important for a boxer to be lineal champion and do nothing but waste time and fight some stiffs as an active boxer winning belts and actually defending them against top 5/top 10 opposition?

Cause nowadays that's what it asually comes down to when the importance of lineage is discussed. "But... but... but he's the real champion! The others are frauds! He hasn't fought a top10 guy for 5+ years, but he's lineal you know, the others are just contenders!"

 

There's a certain irony in seeing promoters embracing the lineal concept when it came into being because promoters were pushing rival claims to the title whilst avoiding making the fights to decide those claims!

I think for once Ring Mag had the right idea. Fury's tried to push his claim as a way of bolstering his commercial value but he put himself out of the picture by his own actions, PED results, retirement, inactivity etc. So leave him to one side for a second. There's a widely recognised number one and two in the division, Joshua and Wilder, so the winner of their fight could be considered lineal, Ring etc.

 

The whole idea of lineal is silly to be honest. Remember when Foreman was lineal and defended against the likes of Schulz, who was robbed, Grimsley, Savarese and then we had Briggs as lineal even though most thought Foreman beat him.

The tag line of being "lineal" is simply a marketing term in reality it means very little beyond that. Remember when Zsolt Erdei was being called "lineal" because he beat the man who beat the man buy beating Cesar Gonzalez who beat DM. Even DM's claim was muddied by many having RJJ above him at the time.

I'd still have Fury as "lineal" if you ignore his doping and factor in that Lewis was retired so gave up the lineal title. But again the idea of lineal is BS. I could claim Joshua is lineal as he was the first to beat Wlad without being caught doping prior so Joshua is lineal right? Doesn't matter if Joshua is or not because again the idea of lineal is BS, Joshua's titles and wins over the best comp is why he's the consensus number 1 and not because he's been labelled "lineal."

 

It's simple. If Wilder beats Fury, then he (somehow!) is the lineal champ. If Fury wins then I'd be happy to say he has regained the lineal title.

After Lennox, Wlad was the man, and Fury beat Wlad. What's embarrassing is that in spite of Fury's two years out, neither AJ or Wilder established themselves as the undisputed division number 1.

Be nice if these boys could all mill it up so we could see who is the best instead of all this online chatter.

 

it was 2½ years out, but that's hardly embarrassing. It usually takes a lot longer to establish a new lineage, and with today's 4 belts and politics it's kind of a miracle that we were only 1 fight removed from crowning a new undisputed heavyweight champ.

 

I don't think Fury's one night in Dusseldorf established supremacy either.

If he'd shown himself capable of defending his crown? Maybe. If he'd not tested positive for PEDS? Perhaps. If he'd not retired, twice? It's arguable.

However none of those things happened. Any status he wants now he should earn in the ring.

 

Lineal explained by someone who actually knows

This content is protected

 

Sack suckers will be sack suckers! Pretty ridiculous when you think about it. Like I mentioned in our previous conversation(No doubt that's where you got the idea for your post) People were saying AJ is not the real champ because Fury is the lineal. Fury has taken a lot of fools on a long ride and they're too foolish to realize it. I feel, outside of an injury, if a fighter does not defend his title inside 18 months, he loses all claim to that title. All this nonsense that Fury is depressed, dude just got 15mil for fighting Klit and he's depressed? Then, like you mentioned, he retired. Once he said he's retired, his reign as champ comes to an end.

 

Deontay Wilder as Lineal champion? Its a joke. Somebody who has been protected as much as Wilder has his whole career can then take it off an unfit, unready, ped cheat who lost all his belts and retired just makes a mockery of the status. Nothing against Deontay Wilder here but i just think the core of what the term Lineal actually means has been lost through the years.

And this doesnt just go for heavyweights. I was fuming when everybody was going on about Canelo being the Lineal Middleweight champion even though hed never fought a proper Middleweight and had never fought at 160. To call him Lineal after beating Cotto at a catchweight is just ridiculous.

What does Lineal even mean? Somebody on here said its someting about being on a path or some bollocks. To say Lineal to me it means your seen as the king of the division. Canelo was certainly not king of the division, Golovkin was and still is. Wilder is the king of his division? NO, there isnt one yet, that still needs sorting out.

 

No, they weren't "perfectly justified" ... because he didn't lose it in the ring.

That's how the LINEAL champ loses the title. It's a simple but effective concept.

RING claimed to recognize the LINEAL champ ... and did for DECADES ... and then recently some new staffers decided to come up with a NEW ARBITRARY set of rules.

Stripping Fury when he'd already announced he was coming back ... and then DID come back and fight what looks like THREE TIMES this year, once for a WBC Title ... because he missed some arbitrary deadline they set is not justified in the least.

You don't STRIP a lineal champ.

RING changes their rules all the time.

They had a rule FOREVER that a new LINEAL champ couldn't be named unless the top two fighters in the division met to restart the lineage. Then some new staffers decided a #1 contender vs a #3 contender "was okay," too.

I remember when RING refused to recognize the cruiserweight division for nearly 15 years, and kept trying to wedge guys who never even fought at heavyweight into their heavyweight ratings ... until it became so ridiculous they changed their stance. They're all over the goddamn place.

You lose the heavyweight title when you lose it in the ring.

Tyson Fury didn't lose it in the ring. Since he didn't, they weren't "perfectly justified" in taking it from him.

Fury is active and fighting again. He just turned 30 like two weeks ago. He's in his prime fighting years now.

If Wilder knocks Fury out, WILDER is PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED in claiming he is the LINEAL champ. Because he did it in the ring.

If Fury wins, he continues on.

That's it.

 

I'm sorry to shoot your little rant down, but the Ring belt is not the same as the lineal title, and it never has been!
They often go hand in hand, but certainly not always.

And if as you claim the lineal title can only be won/lost in the ring, then how on earth did Fury ever become the lineal champion in your idea?!

 

I think my "rant" clearly pointed out that the RING belt is not the same as the Lineal title.

 

Lineal is a bunch of horse**** anyway. Wlad was crowned lineal for doing the same as Joshua in unifying three belts. He never fully unified notlr did he beat the man who beat the man.

The fact is fans can argue all day who the true champ is but there are four ABC belts (up to seven if you include the bull**** WBA crap) a ring belt and a fantasy lineal belt.

At the end of the day the person who sits at number one is the current champ and currently you can't argue against Joshua being the champ.

Foreman was lineal champ for several years defending against the likes of Crawford Grimsley whilst Lewis, Bowe, Tyson and Holyfield were fighting top ten contenders and/or each other on the regular basis. Foreman was champ by fantasy bull**** only during that point just as Fury is now.

If he fights and beats Wilder he can fight Joshua and the winner will be the man but until then Fury is just another former champion come contender.