Question to those who claim Tyson Fury is still lineal champ. Would he still be if Lennox returned?

You said Ring claimed to recognise the lineal champ. But they publicly stated they don't and that you shouldn't confuse the two.
So there was not much reason for the whole writeup.

But my other question remains.
If the lineal title only can be won or lost in the ring, then how did Fury ever get his hands on it as he won the belts from Wlad.
Which lineal champion did Wlad beat?

 

It's not horse crap at all.

What's horse crap about proving who is better in the actual ring?

How on earth is setting an 18-month rule, and then saying, well, it's 18 months and a day, we've decided you're not the best anymore?

That's horse crap.

Knock him out and prove he isn't the best anymore.

 

If you're being serious, I'll answer. If you're just trying to argue, I won't.

 

Wlad established a new lineage by unifying.

 

Yes, I'm being serious. I'd like to see your answer.
It's a rhetorical question of course.

 

You don't seem to be able to read. Lineal is an actual fantasy championship, it does not exist, never has. It's utter meaningless, something fans made up to argue about.

 

The Lineal championship has only been broken THREE TIMES ... ever.
Gene Tunney. Rocky Marciano. Lennox Lewis.

So it's not a common occurrence.

It's not like sanctioning bodies that seem to strip at least one champ they recognize every other month for some "rules violation."

What "newer" fans seem to want is for boxing to function like a sports league, where there is a champion named every year. Or if this person doesn't do what everyone wants, pick someone who will.

Often in the sport's history, when the lineage is broken, who is/was the champ is written after the fact.

The current "top" promoter at the time may try to create a tournament to name a new champ. Publications may try to claim a new champ. And they often name "new" champs. But it's ultimately settled in the ring.

And often, AFTER the dust has cleared.

When Tunney retired, there was a makeshift tournament to crown his successor. The top heavyweights at the time competed. In what was viewed as the "final", Max Schmeling won on a foul over Jack Sharkey.

If Tunney had returned after Schmeling was claiming he was the champ on a foul, everyone would've recognized Gene as the champ and history would continue to recognize Gene as the champ until someone beat him. But Gene didn't come back. When he didn't, people eventually recognized Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, etc. as champs. Even though they all weren't stellar.

So the LINEAGE went from Tunney to Schmeling ... because Schmeling came out on top in the battle of the remaining handful of top heavys.

Jump ahead 20 years

Joe Louis appeared to be the second man to give up the LINEAL title. He retired after beating Walcott the second time, and two makeshift tournaments were scheduled. One took place in the US. One in England. In the US, Ezzard Charles decisioned Joe Walcott. In England, the top British Heavy Bruce Woodcock was supposed to win the title, but he was upset by Lee Savold. So there were "two" champs for a while. Neither was given universal recognition. Then Joe Louis came back and fought Ezzard Charles. That was seen as a LINEAL title fight, since Louis hadn't lost in the ring. Charles won, so Charles was viewed as the LINEAL champ. (Anyone who held out that Savold deserved to be recognized lost their argument when Louis turned around and knocked out Savold.)

So the LINEAGE went from Louis to Charles. (And what had occured - the naming of Savold and Charles as champs - was basically overlooked after the fact.)

When Rocky retired, there was another makeshift tournament and Floyd Patterson stopped Archie Moore. Two years after Patterson won the "title," Rocky began training for a comeback (in 1958). Rocky and Floyd were expected to fight for the title. (Like Louis and Charles). That's why Floyd basically took a whole year off. But Rocky ended up not coming back, and Floyd was eventually recognized by all as champ when it became clear Rocky was never coming back.

It went from Rocky to Floyd ... because Floyd came out on top in the battle against the top heavys.

Jump ahead nearly 50 years ...

When Lennox Lewis retired ... RING announced they were recognizing the winner of Vitali-Corrie Sanders as the champ. Vitali was rated #1 in their ratings, Sanders was #3. Byrd, who had beaten Vitali, was #2. Vitali won, so the Ring said he was the new champ. Some people recognized Vitali as the champ. Some/most didn't. Then Vitali retired. The RING, according to "their rules," said the title was vacant. Which made that whole situation basically pointless.

While Vitali was retired, Wlad re-emerged and started winning titles. In 2006, Wlad beat Byrd for the IBF belt. In 2007, Wlad beat Ibragimov for the WBO belt. In 2008, Vitali came back. But the RING said they'd stripped him when he retired. So he wasn't the champ. INSTEAD, they decided to recognize the winner of Wlad-Chagaev for the WBA belt that year to be for the LINEAL title, which it wasn't. Vitali and Wlad were both the top heavyweights. Everyone knew it. Both were active. But they wouldn't fight.

And had Lennox Lewis returned AT ANY POINT, the person who beat him would've been viewed as the LINEAL champ. But, like Tunney and Rocky, Lennox didn't.

Vitali and Wlad remained the two dominant heavyweights until 2012, when Vitali retired. Wlad was left. The top heavyweights around him were Haye, who he'd beaten, Povetkin and Pulev. Wlad would beat them all.

Some recognize the fight when he beat Chagaev. Some recognize the fight when he beat Povetkin. What's clear is by the time he wiped out Pulev, Wlad was the WORLD Champ.

Like Schmeling and Patterson, he'd won the battle of the remaining heavyweights.

Like Schmeling and Patterson, Wlad was also recognized after the fact.

Then Tyson Fury beat Wlad.

Tyson Fury became the champ.

Fury remains the champ. Like Sharkey was the champ. And Carnera was the champ. And Baer was the champ.

And like Johansson was the champ when he beat Floyd.

Tyson Fury is the champ now.

And hopefully it'll be another 50 years before the LINEAL title is vacated.

 

ON THE CONTRARY. The Lineal title is won IN THE RING. You win it by actually fighting the best and beating them.

There's nothing "fantasy" about that.

Fantasy is creating a set of rules, and then saying someone who won the title IN THE RING isn't the champ anymore because he didn't follow RULE #2 about how many months he could go between fights.

To hell with that.

 

The only thing lineal about Fury is the most recent line of coke in front of his nose.

 

Is because it's by no means cut and dried. For some people the lineal claim ended on retirement, for others when Fury accepted the positive test punishment etc. There is no set of rules to refer to or authority to rule on an claim. One persons viewpoint is as legitimate as the next and hence the continued discussion and disagreement.

 

When the LINEAL champion retires as champ, and he then comes out of retirement, everyone has always recognized the person who beats him to be the LINEAL champ.

Name ANY situation where that hasn't occurred? (There isn't one.)

This situation is no different.

 

If you follow the rules he isn't lineal anyway because Wlad never won the lineal title either so how did he become lineal?

 

I think I fully explained that.

Hell, Wlad was more dominant and beat more of the top contenders around him than Patterson or Schmeling did when they were recognized.

It's not like it's a regular occurrence.

Hopefully, it won't happen again (a LINEAL champ retiring and never coming back) for decades to come.

 

This lineal thing is still going on??? The rules are quite straight forward and doubblechin explained it quite well, but it is arcane and just held on for traditions sake. Let's be real if it wasn't the heavyweight division no one would a .... These discussions of lineal champion rarely take place in the lower divisions. Did anyone care that Floyd was lineal at Welter when Pac was there?? Or that Roy Jones Jr. wasn't technically lineal? It's an archaic tradition from a time before we had real sanctioning bodies and corporations to give us structure. However traditions die hard and boxing fans love their traditions. Nonetheless the sport will keep evolving and rule sets will keep changing this is the nature of all things. Change is the only constant in life.

 

James J. Jeffries would like a word.