Ali vs skilled super heavyweights

Shkor was plenty skilled, but he consistently fought better competition than either Lennox and Wlad and Shkor also lost 3 years of his prime due to the war. Lennox was talented, but flawed and had a weak chin. He would've got badly exposed if he fought in Marciano's or Ali's time. McCall knocked Lewis out with the most textbook counter right after duping Lennox with the left. If Lennox fought in the 40's to 50's like Shkor did he wouldn't have been a champion either. Walcott and Marciano were easily superior and more experienced than Holyfield, who I was a huge fan of in the 90's, but its just the truth.

Wlad couldn't fight on the inside and like Lewis had a weak chin and couldn't adapt once his opponent got the upperhand. Wlad would've also got badly exposed if he fought in during Marciano or Ali's time. Wlad relies too much on his jab and would be eating counters all day against Ali. Corrie Sanders, who is the same size as Ali, but not as talented or skilled was easily able to predict Wlad's jab and started punching over Wlad's jab and destroyed him. Brewster neutralized Wlad's jab by fighting low and attacking Wlad's body. When Wlad started gassing he tried to cheat by excessively clinching and putting his weight down on Brewster, but Byrd wouldn't let him. Wlad had no answer for Brewster's body shots and Brewster got inside and finished him off.

 

This is the bottom line. I love Ali and his era, but if 210 lbs was some sort of optimal weight the division would still be dominated by fighters that size. That's clearly not the case.

And to believe Lewis would struggle with 190 lbs guys is just delusional. There's no other way of putting it. Really Classic at its worst. Some people seem to miss that you can admire the 40's and 50's fighters without completely saying goodbye to reality.

 

No, and not the same type of fighters. Neither were Sanders and Brewster. These guys were bruisers and punchers, not fleet footed boxers.

 

McCall and Rahman were not punchers. They were decent punchers, no better than Ali. And when they fought top heavyweights, their so called power didn't do them any good. (except vs Lewis, of course)

And the other poster completely ignored my point about Holyfield and Mercer (both were past their prime when they fought Lewis) being smaller than Ali. They were shorter than Ali, had a similar reach to him, were nowhere near as quick on their feet, nor were they as quick handed, and they gave Lewis a hard time. Its hard to see Lewis winning 2 or 3 rounds vs Ali in a 12 rounder, and in a 15 rounder, Lewis gets tkoed.

 

If a guy like Wilder (who is sloppy) can be a "champ" while weighing 215 lbs, i don't see why a Holmes, Ali or Foreman couldn't

 

Prime Ali doesn't stop prime Lewis - he may mark him up but he has to swallow a lot of hard right hands to win.

In a 15 rounder, I like Ali 9 - 6 or 8 - 7 and in a 12 rounder, 7 - 5, maybe a judge gives him 8 - 4 due to perceived flash. Lewis dominates the inside fight when Ali cannot tie him up, Ali edges the outside fight.

Prime Lewis was a great fighter. McCall and Rahman hit harder than Ali - Ali's punches were sharper and faster, but I would suggest that they are a step above himself power-wise and I wouldn't know where to start forming the argument that they weren't.

 

He's weighed 215 for one fight, for the rest he's in the 220-227 range or something like that.

But, with that said, I absolutely believe Ali and Holmes and Foreman could do what he's done so far in the division. Especially Ali and Holmes.

 

But.....Ali was a one of a kind. Someone else said that in regard to a young Mike Tyson, that nothing is stopping any 5'11 heavyweights from taking the division by storm. My reply was show me a 5'11 215-218 pound heavyweight today with the attributes and punching power of a young Mike Tyson. And the same could be said in regards to a prime Ali.

Prime Ali and Prime Tyson were of a rare breed of fighter.

 

They were harder punchers than Ali. That gave them more of a punchers's chance than Ali had. In just about everything else Ali was superior.

Ali showed against Lyle that he could turn a fight around with a single punch, so it's not out of the question, though.

You're right about Mercer and Holy. But you can of course make the same argument with, say, Jones and Cooper in the other direction. It's not really fair to judge one fighter on his worst performances and another on his best.

 

They were.

 

You're right about skill set. Imagine if Walcott could have been bulked up like Holyfield did, without sacrificing too much speed and skill while having the extra weight behind his punch? It's possible that he'd beat many of the modern SHW champions

 

Not really. McCall was 29 years old when he beat Lewis and was 231 lbs. McCall's optimal fighting weight was between 225-230. When he strayed even 3-4 pounds over 230 lb his performance suffered.

Hasim Rahman was 29 years old when he knocked out Lewis and was 238 lbs. Rahman was most effective at 230-235, but often showed up overweight. He got away with being overweight against Lewis because Lewis himself came in too heavy in the first fight. Rahman was luring Lennox with the left and then he'd connect with the right. Lewis came in around 10 lbs lighter in the rematch and was able to beat Rahman to the punch almost every time and destroyed him.

Ali at 29 years old when he beat Jimmy Ellis his optimal fight weight was between 215-225. Ali would sometime stray above 225 and he was still able to win, but he wasn't as effective.

 

It's hard to swallow, that's for sure.