Ali vs skilled super heavyweights

They were not harder punchers than Ali in my opinion. I need more evidence to believe that claim.

Guys who are really hard punchers are evident on film and their contemporaries rate their power highly. For example, Ray Mercer said that Morrison hit him the hardest. Tua's opponents will attest to his power. Lewis had a monster right hand which is evident on film and through the words of his contemporaries.

Ali hit hard enough to get the iron chinned George Foreman to back off in round 5 of their fight. Foreman was winning that round until that point. How good was Foreman's chin? It was very good. He took 20 something unanswered shots from Holyfield in his 40's and didn't go down. He took a few hard shots from the hard punching Morrison but didn't go down. Cooney hit him clean and he didn't go down. As far as i can recall, Briggs didn't put him down either and Briggs was a good puncher. Only a hard punching Lyle could put him down and even then, Foreman was rusty.

Ali got Foreman to back off. As you mentioned, he landed a terrific right hand on Lyle that effectively ended the fight. Ali was an underrated puncher.

McCall couldn't put away Buster Douglas, couldn't put away Frank Bruno (who was hardly known for his chin), couldn't put away an old Holmes. Nor did McCall's contemporaries laud him as some monster puncher. Ditto for Rahman.

Were Rahman and McCall harder punchers than Ali? I am not buying it. I doubt they hit any harder, and even if they did, the difference is minuscule.

Ali was a rising star when he struggled vs the slick Jones and was floored by Cooper.

Lewis was a seasoned pro when he barely got past Mercer. In the second Holyfield fight, Lewis was as well prepared and good as he ever has been.

I am not picking Lewis's worst fights. Lewis actually fought well vs Mercer. And Lewis had ample experience by then, unlike Ali vs Jones or Ali vs Cooper 1. Mercer just showed what a skilled, strong chinned fighter with a decent work rate could do vs Lewis.

Holyfield was a year away from struggling vs John Ruiz. The Holyfield of the early 90's would dominate Ruiz. And Lewis was extremely well prepared vs Holyfield the second time around, its just that Holyfield tactically fought a better fight.

Ali dominated Cooper in their second fight. Ali being floored by Cooper had everything to do with inexperience. The same can't be said for Lewis vs Mercer or Holyfield 2.

 

you are a great poster but i respectfully disagree.

I think you are underestimating the work rate aspect. Prime Ali, as you know, could maintain a very high work rate for 15 rounds. Lewis needed a bit of rest even in a 12 rounder and couldn't maintain that fanatical work rate. Lewis loses a few rounds just because of the work rate aspect alone.

See the above post regarding power.

 

Holy is better than both.

 

It's okay to disagree - I just think that Lewis is a bit better than you may be giving him credit for.

On work rate, you are correct, Ali shows superior work rate to Lewis when factoring in his footmovement and the energy expended through dancing, defensive and offensive output. I just don't think that a prime Ali will be able to dance with a prime Lewis for 15 rounds. It's more likely that he boxes off of the backfoot and pivot like he does Liston when down off his toes and slipping both inside and outside the jab. Owing to the real live threat that Lewis' straight right poses him, I fancy Ali to favour slipping outside the jab and occasionally attempt his counter hook in the early rounds.

On the way to the inside from mid-range, before Ali can clinch successfully, Lewis hits him with solid shots to the body, holds and hits, whilst Ali pushes, spins his man and locks Lewis up, pinning his arm and tugging on the neck to force the separation. In the clinch, if we are not adding size and strength gained through boxing-specific weights training conditioning and nutrition to Ali or stripping Lewis down in weight somewhat to replicate the rigours of fighting 15 rounds and the training methods of Ali's era to afford the fighters training and development parity relative to their actual eras, then Lewis' extra weight will give Ali something to handle and will impact on his own stamina.

I completely agree with you in that Ali's likely an underrated puncher, but his one punch power wasn't the reason why Foreman got knocked down. It was a combination of power, accuracy, speed and wearing George down throughout the fight. His fight-ending uppercut-hook combination on Quarry, his right hand on Lyle, making Liston stumble in the first fight, the hook on Bonavena, Ali could punch, but his speed and snap is the knock out portion of his punching for me, rather than consistent brute force. Rahman was a specimen, incredibly strong in the gym. That he wasn't a consistent murderous puncher is, in my opinion, at least, more a consequence of less than stellar punch mechanics than his lack of punching power. I would class McCall and Rahman to naturally hit harder than Ali and would not look at their KO victims or lack thereof to verify it, rather I would go by the biggest shots that I have seen them throw on film and then look at how I compare that to the biggest shots that I have seen Ali throw on film.

Put it this way, if I had to offer my chin for a clean shot that I could see coming and try to roll with, I'd rather get hit by Ali than get hit by a Rahman or a McCall.

 

styles make fights. Frazier gave Ali a hard time but lost easily to Foreman. And Ali beat Foreman convincingly

You are right that Norton would lose to the likes of Lewis and Wlad. That is because Norton had a weakness vs overpowering punchers and Ali, while underrated, was not an overpowering puncher.

Frazier would have a punchers chance, especially if the fight goes late. I would not underestimate Frazier.

There are two types of guys who can trouble Ali, i) hard punching high endurance swarmers like Frazier and Marciano and ii) skilled or awkward and fast boxers like Holmes, Walcott, Tunney, obviously Norton, etc.

Ali is usually beating bigger slower hard punching heavyweights. That is the worst style to fight Ali with.

And Ali was one of a kind. This doesn't mean he was invincible. But his wins over Foreman, Frazier and Liston eclipse any wins that Lewis, Wlad or Joshua have ever had. You can disagree but the vast majority of boxing fans will agree with me.

 

He redeemed himself against both fighters. Some people have others numbers and that seemed to be the case w Norton. I don’t think that’s a serious knock on Ali. The case of characters he beat career wise is better then any HW in history. He fought everyone serious there was to fight.

 

Most people are in their physical prime at those ages - I'd like you to demonstrate another elite fighter that relies on his feet and reflex like Ali of 1967, that lost three years of their career come back to the ring and be as fluid and co-ordinated as before their exile/retirement.

My contention is that although close to his prime, the Ali that Frazier and Norton fought was not a prime, let alone peak version of Ali. The rest, as dmt pointed out, is a case of styles make fights.

 

I think there are many different reasons for the over sized heavy weights but for some reason people seem to think that yesterday’s HWs would come in weighing the same lol. That rationality is what blows my mind. And if you would take the oversized heavies today send them back in time they don’t weigh nearly as much. So I would base arguments off a skill perspective and style. This whole Lennox weighed 20 more pounds then this guy he would win argument is absurd (Lennox is an ATG not knocking him just using him as an example). That’s why guys like Marciano and Ali and Joe Luis would be able to compete w anyone because they had the skills needed to compete in any era. That’s not to say some fighters would be the same maybe they change a little who knows.

 

We disagree about their one punch power, but let's not get bogged down in a side discussion.

The question is, could Ali end the fight with a KO/TKO if it was in the balance or he was struggling? Well, Ali wasn't ever known as a fighter that could turn a fight around at any minute with one punch, but then he rarely had need to. We know he could do it against a strong, rugged fighter like Lyle, so he should be able to do it against Lewis also. But that doesn't mean he would be likely to do so if he was behind. It's not Hearns-GGG we're talking about here. Lewis was KO'd twice but he also took strong punches from tie likes of Briggs and Vitaly and, if I remember correctly, Tua. But it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Ali turn it around with one punch or combination.

Could Lewis turn it around with one punch? No one ever beat Ali with a single punch, but then Ali also never faced someone with combination of size and power of Lewis. So this one is harder to say.

Who was most likely to win points wise? This is also hard to say since Lewis really didn't face any top quality elusive boxers in their prime and Ali never faced someone like Lewis.

What I take from this is that they bot would win and lose against each other in a series. Let's sat 2-1 Ali over three, since he also was highly adaptable.

Cooper was the fight before one of Ali's best performances. Jones was the fight before that.

Most would say that Lewis was still improving against McCall as well. Both were sloppy, both got caught. The difference being that Ali got caught right before the bell, by someone who was a lot smaller than McCall. And I don't agree that Ali dominated the rematch. Cooper was definitely in it when he eyebrow split again. Ali looked more focussed and sharper, though, and wasn't going to get caught like that a second time. The sad affair that was Lewis-McCall II doesn't tell us anything really. But in the rematch against Rahman, Lewis looked much better than in the first.

I wouldn't say that Mercer had anything that Lewis didn't get in other opponents. Probably an off night. And you can't just pick and choose the Holyfield fight you think best proves your point. He was a bit better and Lewis was a bit worse than in the first fight, but still won. Must be hard to fight a rematch you don't think you should have to fight in the first place. The decision in the first fight was horrendous.

 

This thread is a busy one. Ali never fought any skilled super heavyweights in Lewis or Klitschko's class.

He did fight Lyle, and Norton. But were reasonably big guys with skills, and if you tally them all up, probably lost more rounds than he won.

Does that answer the title of the thread?

 

You don't think that being out of the ring for nearly 4 years and having just 18 rds of ring combat on his return contributed to his loss against Frazier? Ali was in bed with 2 hookers the day of the first Norton fight,I think its safe to say he underestimated him.