Roy Jones was better than Sugar Ray Robinson

Both were significantly better than Montell Griffin.

 

And Roy would flunk that test.

 

Tarver also had excellent one shot power.

 

So you think he was in his prime in his 30s?

 

Ray or Roy?

 

He was 30 and 31 for those fights and went on to achieve some of his greatest wins afterwards so I would guess he was still in his prime.

 

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Thanks to @reznick for this.

Ray Robinson was the best I have ever seen. Not a doubt in my mind.

My article on the Lamotta fight https://imgur.com/gallery/ckrLP

 

We clearly have a different definition of prime then.

 

I meant to stipulate Welterweight too as well as a fair bit of it.

 

I don't buy into the RJJ 'rapid weight-loss theory'. It's bizarre, the kind of excuses fans will come up with to explain away shock results.

People could perhaps, reference the weight loss for a less than inspiring performance the first time he faced Tarver, but blaming the same for the KO he suffered to Tarver in their first rematch is just plain nonsense.

For sure, Jones was past prime, but that doesn't entirely explain away the KO, either. Jones was looking much better in the first one and half rounds of the rematch. The KO happened because Tarver was resolute; he held is position and was able to counter effectively.

The fact is that a solid shot was able to scramble Jones Jr. Rapid weight loss had nothing to do with it.

 

I'll pitch for Jones here. Even over and above the weight loss his career was 50 fights deep by the time of the Tarver rematch. He was about 15 years deep in pro boxing. He'd traversed all the way from 160 to heavyweight and then back to 175. A decade at world champion level. He was also an athletic reflex fighter and when these assets dimmed he was most ordinary and it happened very quickly.

When say, a Monzon retired he was 14 years deep with 7 years at world champion level and no traversing of divisions. He had loads of fights but with a lot of early filler.

Hagler also went about 14 years deep. He had loads of fights as well but much filler can also be found and no traversing of divisions. If we give him the Antuofermo fight we see 8 years at the top level.

We can say these guys beat tougher opposition but we could also factor in the size of some of the guys Jones was fighting. Jones and Monzon were both around 35 when both finished at the top and Hagler a bit younger but he had a tough upbringing too.

Both these guys were more fundamentally sound than Jones and didn't rely on natural gifts. They were also career middles.

So i don't think Jones was suddenly found out or anything. The guy lost a step or two and it was a lot uglier than when Hagler and Monzon lost a step or two for reasons mentioned. I don't think Jones had a glass jaw at all - it would have been found out much earlier than this deep into his career. As stated earlier it held up fine in numerous bouts against good opposition. Hagler and Monzon of course had two of the best chins ever.

A couple of years earlier i would back Jones to put his usual whupping on Tarver. He was quite ordinary by the time of that first fight and i personally don't think it was due to Tarver.

 

I never offered an excuse - simply said, his chin wasn't questioned until he had gone up and come down.

@JohnThomas1 pretty much covered the main points.

No man over the age of 30 can make that kind of weight fluctuation and not lose something. Sometimes, it's a bit of speed, sometimes, it's a stamina issue, sometimes it's punching power and sometimes, it's punch resistance. It is my opinion that going up and coming down sapped Jones of enough physical attributes to make him more vulnerable and once caught, he was caught. In his prime, he took punches clean on the chin and to the body with little visible adverse affect. This doesn't mean that I think the weight loss was the reason why he got sparked, but that I believe that it did enough to make him more vulnerable as an athlete.

Without the Ruiz fight and weight fluctuation, I agree - Tarver likely sparks him if he catches him clean and I'd definitely like Foster to clean his clock if he catches him in the same manner. I, however, don't see how anyone would disagree with the notion that losing the weight like that could affect his ability to withstand solid shots, especially at the age he was in the fight and that stage of his career.

 

I was typing too fast...

 

That's fair enough. I've always maintained that Jones Jr was a phenomenon. Although, at the same time, I've not been as impressed with him as a boxer, like others have and I find the seriously peddled idea, that Jones Jr was somehow in the same league as or better than Ray Robinson, a bit more than a stretch.


On his being KO'd the first time, I'd neither dispute that Jones Jr was past prime, when he met Tarver, nor suggest he had a glass jaw. However, I would suggest that Jones, even in his speedy pomp, was far from untouchable and that his jaw wasn't stellar. So, I can accept that he was slowing up; just not the weight-loss excuse and, given the right level of prime opposition, I think he'd have been more liable to exposure in the chin department.

I couldn't, therefore, say I am entirely convinced that Jones Jr would have just gone through the motions with Tarver, a couple of years earlier. People also seem to forget that Tarver was no spring chicken either and a couple of years shaved off might well have served him well, too.


On the matter of weight, size and divisions, I think most would consider Jones more a career Light Heavyweight; more so than a middle or super middleweight. It's not unreasonable to factor in the size of some of the guys he was facing, though. I just don't think it's a major factor in assessing him. Yes, he fought several guys bigger than him but he did match quite a few, who had also made their way to 168/175, traversing the lower weight divisions themselves.


Overall, when you have the speed and reflexes of Jones Jr, it's easier to look fantastic, more often, against average opposition (I don't think it was that good, bar a few exceptions). In my view, that's effectively what he did for the best part of his career. I think, on balance, both Monzon and Hagler had much tougher careers, facing all of their main rivals, on multiple occasions in some cases, and neither of them ever looking in danger of being knocked out.


As far as the main assertion of the thread, in relation to Sugar Ray Robinson, is concerned, I have no doubts that, pound-for-pound, Ray Robinson is in another league altogether.

 

You're over-cooking your case, with overstatement like this...

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Archie Moore would very probably disagree^^