Roy Jones was better than Sugar Ray Robinson

It seemed to me, in your earlier post, that you directly linked Jones weight loss, post Ruiz, to a reduction in his durability. As follows:

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I don't dispute that rapid weight loss could play a part in reduced punch resistance, but then again, it would likely have a wider adverse impact on performance, which it probably did in Tarver/Jones Jr (I).

The problem is that the rematch is some way down the road, after the weight loss, which wasn't huge in the first place, and would not have been a challenge, at this point.

The assumption that the initial weight loss left a lasting effect is one I would challenge. Not because it is entirely implausible, but because there is no evidence to make such a direct correlation.

It is more likely that RJJ was just slowed up, due to the age he was and the stage he was at in his career. And, Tarver was a better boxer than Jones Jr had faced for some time.

 

Perhaps, I did overcook it - I should choose my language better.

Archie Moore is an exception, a very rare exception of one of the most skilled fighters to ply his trade in the squared circle. That he was a more skilled boxer that Roy is without question to me.

I probably should have said that "no fighter who relies on speed and timing like Roy did can go up and down like Roy did and not lose something by way of speed, stamina, punch resistance, or power or perhaps a bit of each. At the very top, against a fresher Tarver (comparative fights and rounds faced in combination with weight jumping) any slips, no matter how minimal make you vulnerable."

Perhaps, Tarver would have always clocked him and yes, you do make a good point in that his chin isn't somewhat impenetrable; I just find difficulty in accusing Roy of being glass-jawed when I saw B-Hop and Toney land clean punches.

I agree and disagree. Although the second fight was half a year down the line from the first, I believe that with someone like Roy, the weight jump would do enough to upset Roy's athleticism that I could well consider his punch resistance to be still impaired.

You are correct in asserting that there has been no evidence to suggest that the weight loss could have a long-lasting effect on his durability. I perhaps extrapolate anecdotally from athletes that have shown a slip when either being out of the ring for a long-time, recovered from severe weight gain and just knowing that, generally speaking, a man isn't as fast in his mid-thirties as he is in his mid-twenties.

I most definitely agree that Roy slowed up - I just think that the weight fluctuation, his age and a combination of Tarver being a real live opponent accelerated his decline.

 

I don't think Jones Jr was glass-jawed. He got caught well on a few occasions. But, this does lend itself to the idea that he was not the untouchable phenom many have made him out to be. And, while there's no denying his physical gifts, these assets were fused entirely with his style of fighting; in turn, allowing him to get away with an unorthodox approach - while those assets held up.

 

I feel like Jones during his prime demonstrated a much bigger gap between himself and his competition. In addition to his official losses Robinson had numerous close calls-draws, fights that could have gone the other way, apparently received a long count against Artie Levine, etc.

Also, the criticism of Jones competition doesn't really seem to hold up, most of the guys he was fighting were top contenders. He missed out on some guys but Robinson also missed out on many worthy opponents.

 

Also, I'm not terribly impressed by this argument that Jones wins are made less impressive by the fact that he relied on his reflexes and was lacking in boxing fundamentals. Ray Robinson almost always had a height advantage over his opponents.

 

Robinson was 120-1-1 10 + years into his career. He lost to a bigger guy. Nobody was more consistsnt. Did Jones beat James Toney 5 times? SRR had to beat guys more than once. There is more of a chance your gonna have an off day. Still it took 11 years in to lose to a man the same size.
Sugar fought better fighters as well. Roy was awesome though. He was our generations Sugar.

 

I think his jaw was reasonable and that he showed good durability to body shots.

I guess I, too often, perhaps unfairly, compare him to an Ali, who when his speed was diminished adapted his game somewhat to accomodate for that. I look at Roy and see that he didn't adapt as well. I also then think that I should look at Roy as just Roy and not compare him to anyone else - however, I temper this with the suggestions during his prime that he was the greatest ever - admittedly, claims made by more casual fans but it does still make me compare him against the likes of an Ali or SRR, who even when shot fighters weren't getting sparked out and at least knew how to protect their chins, or survive.

I guess the one thing that Roy never showed me in comparison to the elites is that he could face and overcome real adversity in the ring. He doesn't have a Foreman, or a Hearns or a LaMotta/Fullmer type victory on his record considering the variables of the respective fights and the danger of the opponents at the time, for me.

 

Jones was amazing. Nobody had more talent. He was hard to lay a glove on. I've always been a fan. Robinson though did so much more. That is just the way it is. He routinely gave away weight in his prime. Nobody at Welterweight could beat him. He never lost at that weight. If Ray lost in his prime than Jones did as well.

 

Roy's only official loss before age 35 was a DQ in a fight he was on his way to winning by knockout, Robinson was simply bettered by the likes of Maxim, Turpin, and LaMotta.

 

Griffin had flustered him and frustrated him for a good bit of the fight. That played a part in Jones losing his cool. That loss counts just the same. Robinson never let that happen. Ray had the market cornered on cools.

 

Roy was past it i agree but Ray was 31 or so and had over 130 fights on his odometer. Do you think that is significant? The only prime loss Sugar Ray had was LaMotta in a bout he was giving away around 15lbs or more.

 

Was Levine a Welterweight? Did Ray get up off the canvas to KO a guy two division North? Robinson record and achievements look more impressive upon closer inspection. That is rare.

With that said Roy Jones was the most talented boxer I have ever seen live besides Anthony Joahua

 

Anthony Joshua box circles around Sugar Ray. Too much skill.

 

The losses to Maxim and Turpin are prime losses and he also has draws with Basora and Brimm.

 

The way you put it makes it sound like you are making a statement. You have to give Ray Robinson the edge. He fought everyone and more and held up better in my mind.