[1889] Richard Kyle Fox, Boxing, on the evolution of boxing "science"

Wow, this thread devolved into lunacy quickly.

I think this guy's problem is that when he says "jab", he means something identical to what's used today.

I don't think Corbett had a punch precisely like a jab because he needed a different entry method in an era with tiny gloves. You couldn't stand at midrange and trade combinations. You feinted your way in from extreme range. So Corbett had a lunging punch, which could force a clinch if he missed.

The "winding up" stuff, I have no idea. I admit it's weird looking in the Tunney clip. It'll probably be a counterpunch after blocking a left lead...assuming he has the footage he claims he does.

 

You're right. A noncontact play sparring session between two old out of it boxers, that hate each other, pretending to make up for the cameras, is a far better indication of how he fought, than actual footage of him fighting.

 

It's funny how Sullivan is trying to make Corbett look bad on camera.

When Corbett belatedly realizes that Sullivan just "landed" two punches in play sparring, he gets serious. Sullivan quickly realizes it and stops, content that he made Corbett look like a sucker for posterity.

 

OK, guys, look.

Let's say you're right, and Corbett doesn't even have proper boxing technique.

Here's footage of former UFC champion Lyoto Machida doing light contact sparring, just like a lot of the clips floating around with Corbett.

Notice the total absence of any proper boxing technique, because Machida's doing a totally different striking art. He also looks pretty goofy, doesn't he?

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Now, do you believe that a 1-0 amateur could outstrike a prime Lyoto Machida with boxing gloves?

 

It's amazing how much the science fiction goggles crowd can pick up off of so little footage.

 

https://streamable.com/1x8z0

“The ring post obscures his fist.”

These people are delusional.

 

He's unorthadox, but I think he looks very good. He's certainly one who's speed allowed them to get away with fighting in a way that wouldn't work for most, due to his sheer talent and speed.

His record isn't great, but better than you make out.

William Miller is an alright win, he had apparently been Heavyweight champion of Australia, and had a win over an aging Larry Foley

He totally battered Joe Choynski, they were both inexperienced as pros, but were both good amateurs, having apparently fought a couple times in the amateurs (Corbett winning both)

Australian Billy Smith is an alright win.

Jake Kilrain is good win, and Corbett beat him before Slavin did.

Dominick McCaffrey is solid win, undersized, but a long standing good contender, and closer to him prime

The Peter Jackson was pretty much a non-event reading the reports, honestly, I think noncontest might be a pretty fair description.

Sullivan was way past it, but at a decent weight atleast, and he'd been past it for a long time and kept winning (though he probably wouldn't had he fought Jackson)

Mitchell was past it, but had been a top heavyweight contender, and I don't think Corbett was in great shape for that either.

Lost to Fitz, but then so did Sharkey, Ruhlin, Maher, Gardner, Dempsey, Creedon etc. Fitz was a beast.

Sharkey was a top contender, who gave Jeffries good fights, and had a lot of good wins. Corbett was getting the worst of it, but not being knocked out. He got DQ'd for one of his seconds jumping in, but I've heard there's some question he did that to make Corbett lose and win bets. I need to find a decent report on this one.

Lost to Jeffries, but was winning past round 20 in the first fight, and Jeffries has a decent claim as an ATG, and shot to pieces himself in the second.

Kid McCoy is a very good win (I don't think it's fixed from the evidence).

 

This thread is quickly separating the serious historians from the hero worshipers.

I don't understand why you're having so much trouble following this argument, reznick. It is not complicated. I will write it again, in simple language:

I said Corbett wound up before throwing his "jab", especially when he was countering. Your ridiculous "reply" to this fact was to post a clip where Corbett only has one complete punch: the one in the middle, where the camera records the punch from beginning to end. And in that punch, the ring post obscures his left hand at the moment he would have been winding up.

So you deny that Corbett winds his fist back to throw his "jab". This game wearies me.

I'm going to ask you a question, BitPlayerVesti. And I'm asking reznick, too. I insist that you answer.

What does Corbett's left hand do from 0:47 to 0:49, right before Corbett throws his "jab"?

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I'll write it one more time. I'll even bold it for you:

What does Corbett's left hand do from 0:47 to 0:49, right before Corbett throws his "jab"?

 

You'll have a hard time getting Reznik to answer your "questions", given he's currently banned.

I put more stock in the footage of him fighting where he doesn't do what you're talking about thean some footage of him, as an old man, mucking around with Tunney, stripped from it's context. Why would anyone vaguely honest judge him only by the clips of him as an old man not in competitive boxing matches?

The only context of the video is that it is some famous punches of history, which makes it sound like he's immitating other fighters, amound other possibilities. In the footage of him fighting he holds himself totally different, and his hand movements only make much sense in the context of his footwork, Ryan Garcia does something similar.

 

Corbett pulled his fist back and bobbed like a rutting kangaroo in the McCoy demonstration, too. The only fighter Corbett was "imitating" was himself.

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I don't care what he did when he was goofing off as an old man. Show me where he does it in the footage of him as a competitive boxer.

 

That's easy, BitPlayerVesti. Watch reznick's own clip of Corbett's combination "skills". Corbett flaps his left arm like a seagull.

https://streamable.com/xjtn

Feast your eyes on the counter-jab of Gentleman Jim Corbett, boksing jenius.

 

What are feints?

 

I'm glad you asked. Let's see how USA Boxing's official manual defines feints:

What type of punch is Corbett "feigning" in the streamable footage, when he flaps his arm over and over again? It's certainly not a jab! Here's Floyd Mayweather, Sr., showing how to feint with a jab:

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Doesn't look anything like Corbett, does it? Mayweather Sr. is not flapping his arm like a seagull having a seizure. He isn't pulling his left fist way back.

So what punch is Corbett "feigning"?

Let me solve this mystery. It's his counter-left, which he pulls back before throwing. Says so right in his boxing manual: