P4P Floyd Mayweather Jr Vs Sugar Ray Leonard

I think Floyd's resume is getting sold a bit short in this discussion. His "wins without asterisks" aren't as impressive as SRL's, but many of them are still really good in their own right.

Pac was still Floyd's number one challenger at WW and the win made Floyd a two time lineal champion in one of the sport's glamour divisions.

Canelo was pre-prime, but was good enough to be the clear number fighter that Floyd could have face at 154lbs at the time. He may have had to come down to 152lbs (which was all of a pound less than what he weighed against Trout in his previous fight), but he was still considerably younger and larger than FMJ was at the time.

Corrales may have been distracted going into fight with Floyd, but he was still undefeated and coming off a series of KO defenses going into what was a de facto unification at 130lbs. He too was considered the number one guy that Floyd could face at that division.

And finally Castillo was considered the number one lightweight in the world when Floyd met him. Personally, I had Floyd edging the first, but even if you think JLC should have gotten the nod the first time around, Floyd still faced and defeated him in the re-match.

Floyd reigned as lineal champ in 4 divisions and defeated the number one guy at the weight each time to secure that status. That's pretty impressive, regardless of how many asterisks are attached to each outcome.

I still have Leonard top 15 and Floyd top 25...But there isn't that much space between 'em.

 

This is wrong in so many ways and moving the goal post its really funny. 1st, your comparing Duran moving up to what happened with Marquez, Duran went all the way up to middlelweight and carried his power. Duran also was 28yrs old when he fought Leonard , not going on 39yrs like Marquez was. Marquez had one fight, against Diaz at welter before he fought Mayweather jr, Duran had multiple fights at welter before he fought Leonard. And the bottom line is Marquez was not on prime Durans level at anytime of his career . No one criticized Leonard when he decided to fight Hagler because most (including me) thought it was a suicide mission, Also Hagler wasn't knocked out cold or beaten in yrs like what happened to Pac before Mayweather jr conveniently decided to fight him. Judah and Castillo are not close to Benitez in anyone's book except you. And they fought completely differently, their styles were no wear similar. Corrales, Maidana and Cotto are good fighters, but only one was prime when Mayweather fought him and that was Corrales, at super feather (where Ido give credit to Mayweather, he was his absolute best, fighting very capable fighters ) Yes the may have been better than Lalonde pound for pound. Lronard had retired before Curry became champ, than Curry got starched by Honeyhan. and anyone who knows anything about boxing and not an axe to grind know Leonard would've decimated Pryor, and thank God for Pryor it didn't happen. You say Mayweather had better stamina, how many hard fought 15 rd fights did Mayweather have to support this foolishness? Accuracy is based on what? Fighters who barely moved their heads as most of Mayweathers opponents did by the time he fought them because they were well beyond prime? Mosley , Deloyhoya, Pac, Marquez all were over the hill by the time Mayweatherjr decided, all were deep in the valley honestly and fought May simply for the money involved. I like Pail William's chances against Mayweather, than Mayweather's chances against either Benitez, Hearns,Duran or Leonard at welterweight. Moseley or Maidana didnt punch with the authority Leonard punched with, and no were near as quick. Their was no punch that Leonard couldn't use effectively, watch the entire Hearns fight for reference. Sure Mayweather was more defensively sound, But he fought with no where near the aggression Leonard fought with, it's easy to be defensively sound if your fighting off your back foot. Mayweather Jr wouldn't have won a rd against Hearns or Duran fighting that way waiting for the opening and not taking a chance , and a fresher Deloyhoa probably beat him too. Leonard went up in weight and defeated the undefeated Jr.Middlweight champ, than went up in weight again to fight the ultimate Middleweight champ yrs later, than yrs later went up to lt. Heavy to defeat that champ. From welter weight to lt heavy is over 30lbs from Jr lightweight to welter is about 15 lbs. Mayweather should've been more effective than Leonard but he wasn't. How many impressive ko's Mayweather have at welter again? Mayweather Jr, I give props to his longivety in the sport, and the money he earned. But his career will always be remembered as a masterful con job..... And his 0 have a lot of the new fans fooled as something amazing.

 

Top 25 is way too high. I have yet to see a boxing magazine rank him that high or respected journalist. What really hurts Floyd legacy that he cherry picked a lot in his prime. He was not willing to take the big risks and challenges like great champs in the past.

 

Head to head, skills and cleverness Floyd ahead for me, achievement-wise Leonard slightly ahead.

 

Well, he was pretty much considered a lock for top 50 back in 2013, prior to meeting Pacquiao and Alvarez. His standing only improves as a result of those wins. Top 25 seems just about right, as far as I'm concerned. And, I suspect that as time passes, most journalists will eventually come around. After all, there was a time when it would have been unthinkable to rate SRL in the Top 20, and DLH in the Top 100, simply on the basis of the fact that they were accused of cherry picking at points in their career.

Anyway, the fact remains is that he still managed to face and defeat the top guy in the four lineal divisions he ruled during the course of his career. Quite a few guys that currently tend to get rated above him can't make that claim.

 

He fought Diaz at 135 and had zero fights at WW before moving up. Which only strengthens your point which I agree with. And he had only 2 fights at 135 from just moving up from 130 .. After the loss with floyd, he went right back to 135.

 

Arguments that only exist against Floyd Mayweather:
1. Having a field day against the pfp number 1 fighter other than yourself doesn't really matter because he was semi-shot. Being older and more past it based on results in the year before and the years after doesn't matter.

2. Beating an undefeated, unified champion with 40+ wins while giving away 15-20 pounds isn't that great because he was green and had to shed an extra two pounds based on the contract he agreed to. Being age 36 for this fight is irrelevant if you had good longevity.

3. Longevity doesn't really count.

4. If you beat the pfp number 3 fighter (yourself included as top 3) and 147 champion who historically had avoided you (toothache), it doesn't count because it's a cherry pick.

5. If you have a somewhat close fight with a talented pressure-fighter and champion while fighting with injury, it proves that you'd lose to virtually every decent pressure fighter in history even if you immediately took a rematch and won comfortably.

6. If you don't fight a limited but half decent fighter aligned with a rival promoter, it's a duck even if three of the opponents in your win column beat the absolute **** out of him.

7. Beating a pfp number 3 fighter after a long layoff doesn't really count if he's moving up in weight, even if he goes back to that weightclass and sparks out the pfp number 1 fighter while deep into his 30s.

 

Thought Marquez fought Diaz at jr welter/welter. I Could be wrong, went strictly off memory, no research.

 

same here you could be right .. either way nice post

 

1-marquez called floyd out, not the other way around.

2-marquez was active while floyd was coming off a layoff and beat marquez ass with no tune up but somehow this is a mark against floyd.

3-the age thing is silly because marquez would go on to have decent wins over boxers like mike alvarado and knocked out p4p king pacquiao in the ko of the year so if anyones shifting goal posts its people like u who discredit the win. Marquez was far from washed up when it happened.

4-what does duran having success at middle have to do with anything? The point is people call floyd vs marquez him picking on a little guy when leanard did the same thing fighting a guy in a weight class below him.

5-people told floyd pacquiao, canelo, and oscar would slaughter him. There are hundreds of memes and threads on the internet suggesting floyd was too chicken to even get in the ring with them. Of course, when he beat these guys all of a sudden the odds and trash talk are downplayed in revisionist history.

6-canelo was undefeated, 10 years younger, and never down let alone out like hagler, is that a mark against floyd now too?

7-cotto was the lineal middleweight champion and a heavy hitting veteran. Maidana was p4p #9 after beating broner and was in his prime. Did you even keep up with boxing when these fights happened because its becoming obvious you have an agenda.

8-floyds accuracy speaks for itself, he would land damn near 50% of his punches while in his late 30's. I dare you to show me the accuracy stats of leanard in his late 30's.

9-floyd has better stamina because he would outwork men who were nearly half his age. Floyd was never gasping for air, dropping his hands, or stopped like leanard.

10-it doesnt matter who you THINK would win between leanard and pryor and curry. The point is for whatever reason it didnt happen so dont bring up williams who was hospitalized and margarito who was a flat footed bum who got destroyed by guys floyd alreadt beat!

The rest of your post is the typical anti floyd rhettoric and same old arguments from 6, 7, 8 years ago. Literally everything i wrote that even slightly praises floyd you want to disagree with which is a sure sign youre biased and probably barely watched his fights.

 

Again wrong in so many ways , but it's your point of view have it. But I'll leave that nonsense your writing with this,,,, so your actually telling the world Mayweather had better stamina because a past prime coked out Leonard got stopped at 40yrs old? Never mind Mayweatherjr NEVER fought a 15rd fight much less a fast paced 15rd fight against ATG's as Leonard did multiple times ?If that part of your post is so wrong and shaded for your love for Mayweather blinds you to that part, its plainly obvious the rest of that post is shaded and backed on your blind love for Mayweather and your dislike of Leonard. I won't dissect the rest of the foolishness you wrote, but any boxing fan with a real knowledge of boxing know that your post is pure nonsense....

 

I agree with you 100%! I'm not going to add to this except to say that you've articulated everything I would have said but far more eloquently.

 

You make some fair points but I do think there is still significant space between them. I personally don't have Mayweather anywhere near the top 25. Like you, I do have Leonard top 15.

I give Mayweather more credit for his win over Canelo than his win over Pacquiao. There's no excuse for what Mayweather did between 2010 and 2014 which was to duck Pacquiao whenever the fight looked like it could happen. To give him significant credit for that win in 2015 is to pretend that that didn't happen or worse, that it meant something similar to what it would have meant in 2010. I believe the fight would have been unrecognisable then to what we eventually saw. Now, I still would have made Floyd a slight favourite back then, even against that version of Pacquiao but I don't think we should pretend that what we eventually witnessed really meant something.

Floyd cherry picked in a way that I think hurts his legacy as a great fighter. He can point to the record and say 'look, I fought Pacquiao and I beat him!' but we all know what happened and I can't ignore that and call it a signature win when it meant next to nothing by the time they fought.

To be clear, I don't think Floyd is 100% to blame for the fight not happening. I think Pacquiao should have pushed Bob Arum harder to make the fight but if we're apportioning blame it's still 80% Floyd's fault that it didn't happen when it truly mattered.

As for the first and second fights with Castillo, yes, he did beat him clearly in the rematch. But we're talking about Jose Luis Castillo here, not Roberto Duran. I personally give Mayweather a lot of credit for taking the rematch and then beating him properly. But we shouldn't lose perspective over the quality of the opposition.

Floyd is probably a top 50 p4p fighter, but as others have pointed out, after a certain point in his career (2009 onwards) he become a conservative matchmaker who protected his brand and image and played the risk v reward game to enhance his bank balance and not his legacy. Fair play to him, I hope he's happy but he doesn't deserve credit for that when it comes to his historical legacy.

Apologies for the slight rant! Yours was a good post with some points I thought were valid which is why I replied. I just can't agree on the Pacquiao fight and the way he stage managed the latter years of his career.

 

Agreed, two excellent talents but I reckon SRL is more lethal of the pair. I don't think Mayweather could beat Hearns, Hagler or even Duran.

 

I agree with your ranking of Mayweather.He ranks Top 40-60 ATG in my book. I do not rate Canelo that highly though. He is just a case of a perfectly managed boxer. There is a large consensus among press media that he lost twice (or drew the 2nd fight) against a still good but past prime GGG.