I once worked with a guy that lived next door to Terrell's Dad. He would always meet the father over the back fence to talk. He told me that one day Ernie showed up to see the father and the three of them got to talking. Ernie brought up the Ali fight and went on about how Ali took his head and rubbed his face in the ropes. The father replied, "Man, the only thing that man rubbed in your face that night was leather!" Still laugh me arse off at that one.
Did Ali need to thumb Terrell to beat him? very likely not. Did Ali thumb him intentionally, only one person could answer that and he died in 2016. End of the day all is fair in a bout if you can get away with it.
Ali denied it. Intent isn't impossible to figure out, though. Criminal courts do it all the time, with a higher burden of proof than historians have.
In 73 Earnie was up here in Mpls MN training and he showed me how Ali did it, in a clinch during the 1st round while the ref was to the side. On film there is a clinch and I assume this is what he was talking about. Earnie said the fight was over at this point, everything was a blur and the most he could do was to keep his gloves in front of his face. Earnie didn't say he hated Ali for it but he was obviously still very bitter.
I don't think so. Ali wasn't a dirty fighter. In any case, rubbing someone's eye along a rope must be very difficult to do.
Would it have been possible from the position he showed you to press the eye hard enough to do the damage Terrell had?
In the 'Facing Ali' video, the exact moment us pinpointed. It was not in a clinch. Terrell was falling back on the ropes and Ali was flurrying on him.
So....Was there an intentional thumb & was there an intentional rubbing of face against the ropes? I find it offensive when someone rights all is fair if you get away with it. Nah, that is the very opposite of legitimate victory, sportsmanship & respectability. I hope Ali did nothing & do not know what happened. But it is a joke to say everything you can do unpunished is OK. In life, politics...Or sports.
No. You're saying there was no eye gouge. That is what your post says. So again: Did Terrell gouge his own eye after the bout?
He may have thumbed him, back before the thumbs were attached too the gloves it happened often.Most of the times accidentally (Maybe not so much with Holmes and Pedroza lol) But the results wouldn't have changed. It's was the same with Duran vs Moore. Ali was levels above Terrell and could've stopped him at will if he choose to. It was like watching a cat toying with a mouse, the cat could kill the mouse any time he choose .