Question about Frazier's intense dislike of Ali

Good point. If anything G of M sanitises Frazier.

 

Great post! I'm a big Frazier fan and acknowledge he had a right to be upset ... but after awhile, as the years become fewer and fewer, you need to let go of grudges. There was a great quote in an SI article from years ago about their endless feud; IIRC, it read "Ali has been living rent-free in Frazier's head for more than 25 years."

I can't recall where, but there was - thankfully - a taped interview where Joe, shortly before he passed, becomes tearful over his troubled relationship with Ali, and wishes Muhammad didn't turn out like he did and they could have just hung out and been friends. Sad ...

 

'Ali living rent-free in Frazier's head' is a brilliant way of describing it.

Unfortunately I doubt Frazier was being sincere in that interview you refer to.

If Frazier had anyone kind words to say about Ali then it's probably because there was some money in it for him.

If you watch the HBO Thrilla in Manila documentary for two minutes starting from the point where this link takes you, it really says it all:

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I think Ali came to Philly in '68 or 69. Moved there and started basically a mob movement all the way to Joe Gym and challenged him to a street fight in Fairmont Park. Along the way he called Joe dumb, ugly etc. Before that I think Joe thought there was respect between them. Frazier always respected Ali as a fighter.

At one time he said "If Baptists weren't allowed to fight I wouldn't go either" in regards to Ali's draft issue. That was a show of support

 

It was impartial and it was long overdue. Kram covered both Ali and Frazier for SI. We've gotten so used to the media slanting everything Ali's way. It doesn't make Joe out to be an saint either. Their both flawed stubborn human beings.

 

Well, if we all had the same opinions the world would be a very boring place.

 

Joe lent Ali money because Ali was basically broke...and Joe helped Ali get his license so that he could fight again...

 

Joe could have hid behind the draft issue and refused to fight Ali on those grounds. He would of had alot of support. It would have been stupid but he believed he was the best and wanted to prove it.

 

Not sure I agree with this one.

Frazier's life, legacy, and identity are tightly wrapped up in boxing. Frazier's boxing career defined him. And Ali had a huge, unfair amount of control over how Frazier was remembered.

Ali didn't earn this control over Frazier's life through performances in the ring, but because Ali was a quick-witted marketing genius. Ali had a much bigger megaphone than Frazier. He used it to paint Frazier into the role of Ali's choosing. It wasn't a flattering role, either.

Imagine you're a prideful man who cares as much about his life and legacy as Joe did. Now imagine that some guy convinces the general public that your entire life and career are just a sideshow for his legend. And that all your accomplishments were just privileges that you received for betraying your own community.

None of it is true, but you're not a marketing genius, so nobody listens to you. And that's how you're remembered for the rest of your life.

I dunno. I think I'd be justifiably bitter about that.

 

Ali was hyping the fight, and used some regrettable angles. As he’s admitted such. Frazier didn’t seem to care, but it made them both a boatload of money.

All in all though, especially after the midsection of his career, Ali did more for humanity in any given year than Frazier did his entire career. People love to focus on the one or two bad things Ali did, because it probably gets boring going through the endless list of amazing deeds.

Frazier was no angel all the time either.

 

If frazier wanted to control the narrative, he could have

A) beaten ali and leave him with his foot in his mouth

B) choose to speak up or hire a publicist

C) get the hell over it and move on

Frazier chose option D) hold a grudge for 30 years, ignore alis apologies and attempts to reconcile, not give ali credit for the fights he won, claim ali deserved his parkinsons.

Real classy.

Other celebrities, athletes, and politicians have to deal with this stuff every other weak, oftentimes its even more foul than what ali said.

But remember, ali did that with all his opponents. Frazier wanted the fight and lobbied to get Ali in the ring. Even Frazier couldnt have been naive enough to think Ali was gonna go to his house and eat dinner and be best buddies (not at the time anyway).

Flattering role? Ali talked trash but he constantly praised Frazier. Constantly. Just google some of the things Ali said about Frazier.

Also consider that Ali initially just wanted to sell tickets. He only kept pressing Fraziers buttons because Frazier blasted him for not wanting to go to war for religious reasons. Theres a thing called agree to disagree. The whole "uncle tom" thing started because Frazier wouldnt side with the civil rights movement or the NOI and he himself said he was "pro american and would gladly fight for his country". Sounds noble, but at the time america wanted black men to go across the ocean to liberate asians while black people were being lynched and denied basic rights. Ali had a point. Even if Ali didnt call him that, black people wouldnt have appreciated Fraziers comments about being pro war at the time given the circumstances.

Frazier also insisted on calling Ali clay KNOWING it annoyed him. He would publicly blast ali for having affairs while he himself had multiple girl friends. Frazier did plenty to add fuel to the fire and keep ali talking.

I dont have that problem, i can do the verbal sparring thing just fine. But i get it, some people are just built different and cant handle emotional pressure. I still think frazier didnt do himself any favors holding a grudge for 30 years and not moving on with his life. The american public prefers people who arent 1-dimensional and stuck in the past. Im not even saying he should have forgiven ali, just that he was making himself miserable after a certain point. Thats not how i was raised.

 

He did. Prime Ali, too, or close to it. It didn't help.

Tried to speak up. Didn't help. Ali was just much better than Joe at that game.

Ali was also a better publicist than anyone Frazier could hire. The Ali legend was an unstoppable steamroller. It ran over Frazier.

Many of these people hold grudges like Frazier, or worse. They're just far more cunning about sniping at their enemies.

Very few of these guys were champions, or great fighters in Ali's league. None of them beat Ali close to his prime. They generally got a good amount of reflected glory from their bouts with Ali.

Sure. Frazier sucked at the PR game compared to Ali. But being the stubborn guy that he was, he still tried, and failed, to fight Ali on his own ground.

And he failed. When the general public remembers him at all, he's remembered as a tough, somewhat stupid dupe for the Establishment who managed to give Ali a good fight. Because that's how Ali painted him.

Now, Ali also praised Frazier. That's true. But that didn't affect the cartoon of Frazier that Ali created for the general public. It just meant that he was a worthy enemy for the legend.

I'll grant you that Ali had a genuine beef with Frazier over political issues. And that Frazier's stance would have offended people. But Frazier is not the stupid privileged collaborator that Ali portrayed.

You wouldn't have done any better against the Ali promotional juggernaut than Frazier did, unless you're some sort of public figure already. And even then, probably not.

I think the American public *prefers* one dimensional public figures. That's what I'm arguing was Frazier's problem: Ali defined the dimension of Frazier that the public saw.

When some guy off the street says, "Oh, he's that guy who...", it's Ali's words that will finish the sentence.

I agree, that's a very healthy attitude you have.

How much was Frazier making himself miserable about it, though? Did he go out of his way to bring Ali up, or mostly respond honestly (in his opinion) to questions about Ali?

EDIT: Changed to past tense. I still forget sometimes that Frazier passed away. And Ali, too. Holy crap, this is depressing when you think about it.

 

Actually, one thing that I really liked about this post is your suggestion that Frazier should have invested in professional help for a PR war against Ali.

I don't think it would have helped much, but it's an interesting and practical suggestion.

 

What areas about Joe did needed sanitizing?

 

Everybody needs sanitizing. Human nature and all that.