Joe Frazier ,Wins The F.O.T.C, how did it decline from there ?

This has all been explained to you before. By beating Ali, Frazier had eliminated everyone. Mac Foster was beat by Quarry and Ali. Frazier beat both. Whilst Frazier recovered from the Ali win, Ali set about engaging himself with an unprecedented run of fights with leading men. He eclipsed Foreman. Frazier wasn’t left with much left to fight. He took two easy fights then took Foreman as a warm up for an Ali rematch. But he wasn’t up to it.

Frazier had already proved himself though.

 

Joes my 2nd favourite heavyweight after Holyfield. Love them both. I think Frazier’s career obviously went massively down hill after the fotc. The truth is joe fought terry Daniels and Ron stander in his first fights back after beating Ali. They are embarrassing competition. Compare that to Holyfield (who in my opinion is the goat) Holyfield beat Douglas to win the title and than fought foreman, Cooper (was meant to be tyson!), Holmes, then Riddick Bowe!
Douglas Foreman Tyson Holmes bowe in a row. Look at the difference between Holyfield and Frazier.

I think joe is such a hero and legendary fighter and a much nicer man then Ali. Joe was so relatable to the working class man. I have him at number 7 of all time in Heavyweights.

I also think joe won the first 2 fights with Ali and was winning the 3rd when Futch stopped it against joes will.

Ali had more gifts than any fighter in boxing history.

Jones, Frazier 2, norton 2, young, norton 3, shavers.

Basically all gifts to Ali that other fighters just don’t have the luxury of getting.

Maybe without the gifts to Ali joe would be remembered as the greatest of the 70s era.

 

Wow “Fan Boy”?! You went from zero to snide punk pretty quick there! I simply and respectfully pointed out that defeating Ron Lyle does not support your statement.

Merely disagreeing with your statement doesn’t reduce me to a Foreman fanboy. Please provide other instances of me being a “fan boy”. Just because someone isn’t kissing your butt doesn’t mean they are slapping your face.

 

You are right! I never thought of it like that. Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe in a row. That’s a great run of names.

However, if you put that into the context of who was the best heavyweight in the world at the time, you get to realise exactly what everyone actually thought about Holyfield at that time.

Douglas was the man to beat (because he beat the man) but unfortunately Douglas’s performance in their fight devalued things somewhat. That bout gained “hollow victory” status through no actual fault of Evander.

Back then Holmes and Foreman were seen as ridiculous challengers, especially Foreman. And Holyfield was criticised for taking them and then struggling with them when he did. Because of this, Evander was very much cast in Tyson’s shadows at that point. Albeit that Evander was willing to fight him.

Once Tyson was incarcerated it looked like Holyfield still needed to prove himself against a real heavyweight. Bert Cooper certainly was not considered one at the time. Another exciting bout to look back upon now, but was seen as another “harder than expected” assignment.

The most credit Holyfield got was ironically in a defeat when he lost to Bowe. People took their hat off to him for the spirit he showed when he finally met a young, current contender. Albeit that it was a loss.

Around this time Lennox Lewis produced by far the most impressive win when he demolished Razor Ruddock. He looked like the man to beat with that statement win. Unfortunately, by then, Bowe and not Holyfeild was considered close enough for the top spot. Sure Holyfield scraped a win on fan man night over one of the two best guys but he soon dropped the ball against Moorer. Another guy nobody ever thought was the best heavyweight in the world at any point.

So it is very difficult to look upon this period of Holyfield facing so many legends in a row, as any kind of dominance. Somebody else was always considered better than Evander throughout that period. Fair or not Tyson was still seen as better. Then it was between Bowe and Lewis.

The whole “Evander Holyfield all time great heavyweight” took a long time to establish. It was almost a lifetime achievement award when he got it rather than something that always stood out.

Once Frazier beat Ali everyone knew. And it didn’t matter after that point because he had already done it. For me, that’s the comparison between Frazier and Holyfield.

 

He isn't world class at the moment,that is my point.I also doubt most ranked fighters will consider him,he would be too much risk too little reward at the present.Put a substantial purse offer in front of them though and I believe you would see quite a few snatching your hand off for the fight. Joyce comes at you all night but he is now 33 so has to step up from the Kiladze's and go for names.Kiladze caught him pretty easily with right swings, he needs to tighten his defence up.On the positive side he cuts off the ring pretty well and varies his attack between body and head.

No that's horse ****.
Foster lost to Quarry in June1970 he didnt fight Ali until April 1972 ,a full year after FOTC.
At the end of 1971 Foster was no5 he didnt lose his ranking until April of that year when Ali beat him.
"Frazier wasn't left with much to fight?" This is cynical BS why didn't he fight some of the men Ali was fighting ?Did Ali have them under an exclusive contract where they could only fight him?

Do you think I am stupid!
Bottom line as Champion for 2 years Frazier never fought a ranked contender, that was a conscious and deliberate decision by him and Yank Durham.He pissed on his legacy, the legacy he had created in FOTC,by fighting two unranked no hopers in 2 disgraceful title defences.

 

You are stating that in all those fights you named Ali was really the loser ?
Frazier will be remembered for taking the decision from Ali in FOTC a decision he deserved
He would never be remembered as the greatest of the 70's regardless of whether Ali was lucky to get decisions over the likes of Young and Norton simply because, from April71 until Jan 73 he defended against undeserving patsies whereas Ali took on those ranked contenders that Frazier ducked!

You imply that had Futch allowed Frazier to complete the last round in their 3 rd fight he would have won the decision,this is your position?
The scorecards were all follows;
66-60
66-62
67-62



The score cards for the Ali V Shavers fight;
9-5
9-6
9-6
All for Ali
You consider this fight a robbery? Are you sure you have actually seen it?

Frazier fought 2 great fighters. Ali x 3 Foreman x2 his record against them is Won1 Lost 4, 3 inside the distance.

 

I can state with reasonable certainty that Frazier's camp wanted no part of an Ali rematch.
Once it became known through his braggodoccio statements to the press that Ali was intent on avenging his loss the newspapers and public began to clamour for a rematch.
The fight had been a great spectacle with nothing like it seen in boxing in my lifetime, [Im70 this month] a rematch with Frazier as the undisputed champion would have drawn $$$$$$$$$$$/
Durham ****ed up.I think his reasoning was lets get this kid Foreman now before he learns to fight,he's got power but is crude as they come.
Of course Ali ****ed up too .He was banging 2 hookers just hours before the 1st Norton fight,and FOTC went down the toilet when they both lost.
Their second fight was an entertaining scrap which I think Ali won but without the kudos of a title it was relegated to " oh ,okay" status.

 

No I’m not stating Ali should have lost all those fights. But maybe like every other fighter in history you win some you lose some. That’s not the case with Ali. Ali won every close decision in his career. Name another heavyweight who had that luxury? We all know why Ali got lucky as often. It’s obviously because the government disgracefully stripped him for 3 years over something nothing to do with boxing. So when Ali returned in 1970 boxing felt they owned Ali. The was a few other things that went for Ali like the Liston rematch being a total fix and the Henry Cooper glove incident. I wasn’t just the gift decisions he got.

And yes I’ve watched every fight I’ve mentioned. Some several times. I actually had the Ali shavers fight 8-7 Ali. And I have him winning the norton 2 fight as well but my point is they were so close they could have gone either way. But they didn’t they went to Ali every single time.

 

I seriously think you are down playing holyfields career and accomplishments big time. I’m with don turner. Evander is the greatest of all time.

Holyfields resume and head 2 head ability are incredible. His resume is simply the GOAT. Holyfield beat every fighter he ever faced in his prime 88-93. He also only lost to Bowe in the rubber match because he had hepatitis A and then he lost a seriously close fight against Moorer because his heart wasn’t working properly. The left valve wasn’t pumping blood and he could have died that night. He was air lifted to hospital. But a lot of people still had Evander winning the Moorer fight. What a warrior! Anyway he recovered and his career continued. He beat Moorer in the rematch by KO. Then let’s move on to the Lewis fights holyfields 3rd loss. The first fight was all Lewis and Lennox was robbed blind. I had it 8-4 Lewis. Bad night for Evander but remember he was past prime and fighting an all time great in Lewis who was in his prime years 97-02. But the same thing happened to Holyfield in the rematch but worse! Holyfield won quiteclearly really. I had it 7-5 Holyfield. Holyfield jabbed Lewis in the cheat all fight. Lewisgassed half way through. But in all honesty Evander needed a KO that night because of what happened in the first fight becauseLewis was robbed so badly. They should be 1-1. So at that point in the year 2000 Holyfield had beaten every man he had faced in the ring. He should have retired then really because his fights after that he was a shadow of prime Holyfield. He had massive stamina issues.

 

I do not want to dispute your unusual opinion that Holyfield is the GOAT-he was great.
But even if I/we agreed about his accomplishments...Does not his PED usage significantly detract from that?
The "Evan Fields" incident that the BALCO investigation uncovered was far more than anecdotal evidence.

And it would be irrational & unfair to assume other or most fighters or HWs used without evidence.
Bowe was not big for his frame, Lewis had the frame to add the muscle, Tyson was bulky early & when a poor & unknown kid...

Holyfield though strong would not have had the size or muscle without not only great training (including the the 8 time Mr. Olympia Lee Haney)-but he needed the PEDs.
You must understand that he would not likely have had those "heart" problems, & a fitness buff would not have such stamina issues, without steroids.

He still had great talent, dedication, work ethic & a warrior mentality.
But he could not have been at least a great HW without drugs.
Maybe he would have been the best CW ever & taken on some lesser HWs.

He needed that extra muscle to handle Tyson, especially in the clinches.
If one cheats not only in a match-& most all did some illegal tactics such as head buting-but transforms their body illegally & their core abilities-how can you not dock him for an artificial, unfair advantage?

 

My opinion is he didn’t cheat but look I don’t mind people saying he cheated. It’s all about opinion.