How did Ray Robinson navigate such a gifted path as a pro ?

Did he fight Burley, or Williams? What about Coco Kid?

Asking Robinson as a middle weight to fight guys over 185 pounds on fight is like asking him to fight heavyweights of his time, which he didn't. So why hold GGG at 160 pounds to the same standard?

 

From his own wight class, I asked. You know full well that these guys were going up to MW when Robinson grew into WW.

Burley and Williams were about as much in the same weight class as Robinson as Ward was in the same weight class as GGG (and you of course well know that Ward wasn't 25 lbs bigger in the ring than GGG, more like 10-15 lbs). The difference is that Robinson fought world class fighters that outweighed him some 15 lbs at the weigh in, something GGG has never and will never do.

Cocoa Kid was fighting at more or less the same weight as SRR for a year or so, but that you don't fight every other contender during such a short window isn't the same as ducking them. GGG hasn't fought Pirog or Saunders, doesn't mean he's been ducking them. The guys you're mentioning all grew out of WW about the same time that SRR grew out of LW. You know this. It has been stated on this forum many times. So why don't you just give it a rest?

 

Robinson was campaigning extensively as a middleweight as early as 1945 so I would say he was a middleweight by mid 1940s so Burley should count as an omission.

 

I'll join Unforgiven then and ask you to name all these "many “. I can think of a few that could perhaps qualify, but many more who couldn't. That's why I'm curious about these "many". Who are they?

 

So if you take the risk of facing top contenders in a higher weight class, you have to face all of them in order not to "duck" anyone? Is that seriously what you think?

 

Well didn't SRR give up a lot of weight to Lamotta in the match he lost? Didn’t SRR say he had issues making weight at welter weight? The answer is yes to both.

I'm not saying his competition was bad at all, moreover I agree with HEgrant that he navigated a path around some name fighters, most of whom were part of the murderers row.

I guess GGG is in the same class as Hagler and Mozon then, since he didn't fight any light heavyweights. Instead he took the money to meet Canelo and was robed twice in a fights most think he won. As I told you before the modern light heavyweights are much bigger on fight night than the ones 50 years ago often weighting 185, which was maybe 2 pounds south of where Marciano and Dempsey were.

If you want to address SRR's bum of the month club, you can.

 

Ring annual ratings. Mid 1940's


1944

1. H Williams
3. Burley


1945

1 Burley
2. H. Williams

1946

2. Burley
3 Chocolate Kid

 

A few pages back, I posted some of his credentials from his first 34 months as a professional.
He was 45-1 with a load of fights against top men.

Which fighters of his era (or thereabouts) were on a more brutal path ?
Name them.

 

I don't think the first 34 months of his career is what we are talking about here.

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^ Might as well say Robinson was ducking Joe Louis too because Louis was about as relevant to him as some of those guys were...

So Robinson was supposed to go chasing fights with Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Ezzard Charles et al when he was a welterweight and they were weighing well above the middleweight limit?

 

I think you put your finger on what is wrong with this argument.

It boils down to Robinson fought LaMotta, so he should have fought every other big guy. Well, LaMottta earned Robinson good purses I suppose, and Ray had proved he could handle LaMotta. It is interesting to me that Robinson gets more flak for not fighting Burley than LaMotta does.

I think it should be pointed out that Robinson was going after the WELTERWEIGHT championship, not the middleweight, and losses to middles could well have derailed him totally. I doubt that Robinson and his management could have been certain in 1945 or 1946 that he wouldn't spend his career on the outside looking in no matter what, so taking tough middle fights before getting a welter championship shot would have really been stupid.

 

And was Robinson rated in the division that you are quoting the ratings from?

Why not ask why Moore did not fight Elmer Ray or Lee Murray or Turkey Thompson?

No one fights everyone, and certainly not everyone in a higher division.

 

I keep repeating the question: in what universe do you have to clen out a higher division just because you step up and beat some contenders in that division? Which other fighters do you put similar demands on?

And you make a mockery of yourself with the "bum of the month" thing. If you fight 10-15 times a year, you quite naturally won't face only contenders, but I think Robinson had faced better opposition before he received his first title shot than GGG has so far in his career. Do you disagree?

 

If Robinson is fighting the majority of his fights as a middleweight that makes him a middleweight in my book. He wasn't someone who every now and then fought middleweights, the majority of his fights were at middleweight in 1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, and 1950.

You would be better off arguing that he wasn't obligated to fight the best fighters at welterweight because he was really a middleweight.