Coming to a Consensus on the #3 Heavyweight Champion

He "should've?" Ike went to jail after the Tua fight for kidnapping a kid and then driving into a wall trying to kill himself and the kid. The kid suffered permanent injuries. Ike went to jail for most of the rest of 1997.

Was Lewis supposed to fight Ike when he was in jail?

Golota was the "hottest" contender in the division at that time after the two Bowe fights. Lewis fought him.

And NOBODY was complaining when Lewis and Golota signed to fight.

Not even Cedric Kushner, who promoted both Ike and Golota. Because, of the two fighters, Golota was the MORE RELIABLE one.

IKE ruined IKE's career. Every time he got close to a title shot, he went to prison.

 

Well, assuming you have Ali and Louis at 1 and 2, and if you have 4-5-6 as Foreman, Marciano, and Holmes, then our top 6 are in complete agreement.


You must be a very incisive and perspicacious student of the sport !

 

He went to jail after both.That's why he didn't fight for more than a year after the Tua fight.

 

The "shadow" of Mike Tyson destroyed Savarese and Golota and Nielsen before that fight. Vitali was the dominant heavyweight other than Lewis that decade. Tua was a dominant challenger. Holyfield held all the other titles.

Enough of this garbage rewriting history crap.

No one else on the list beat a collection of challengers like Tyson, Vitali, Holyfield and Tua.

Joe Roman. Ken Norton and Axel Shulz don't compare.

Earnie Shavers. Gerry Cooney. Tim Witherspoon don't compare.

No one.

 

I'm not a Lewis "fanboy."

And 'let's agree to disagree' is what I'd expect from someone who realizes he can't name anyone on the list above who beat challengers as good as Tyson, Holyfield, Vitali and Tua ... so he just decides to throw out an insult as he makes his escape.

If someone else beat better challengers, I'd rate them higher.

Go ahead. Fill us in on who did? You seem to have someone in mind.

Oh wait, you can't.

 

If made to pick with my mind, it would be Lewis, if made to pick with my heart, it would be Johnson.

 

John L Sullivan was the first media superstar. I was amazed going through papers of the late 1890's at how many articles there were about Sullivan who was by then long retired.

It is true that boxing exploded in popularity in the 1920's, but so did other sports like college football. The Dempsey-Tunney fight at Soldier's Field did not draw the biggest crowd there. Football games between Army & Navy, and Notre Dame & USC drew larger crowds.

So it is hard to exactly judge to what extent Dempsey was a cause or just an effect.

"Both Ruth and Wilt changed the rules of their sports."

What rule did Ruth change? As for Wilt, yes, but the biggest rule change was the 24 second clock which came earlier.

Also, rules are always changing to some extent in all sports.

And, did Dempsey cause rule changes because he abused the old rules so obviously, standing behind opponents who were down and hitting them when they were trying to get to their feet?

 

Rather than a rule change, Ruth changed the nature of baseball from a small ball, singles, one run at a time game to a HR, I don't care if I strike out game. One rule change was a ball bouncing into the stands was changed from hr to double but I don't know if it was changed because of Ruth.

5 second rule under the basket was also instituted because of Wilt.

College football, tennis and golf were certainly big time, but baseball was the nation's pastime.

Regarding Dempsey standing over his opponent....everybody did that. It was legal.

 

"Dempsey standing over his opponent"

I can't remember anyone else on film standing or trying to stand behind his opponent to hit him before he turned around. Most stand ahead of the opponent and move in quick, although that was bad enough.

"baseball was the nation's pastime"

Which has what to do with Dempsey?

Prior to the 1920's, the largest baseball crowd, and pro sports crowd in general, was 47,000 for a 1916 World Series game. In the 1920's, the largest baseball crowd was 85,265 for a 1928 doubleheader at Yankee Stadium, a huge attendance for a sport with such a large playing field.

Of the American popular sports, in my estimation basketball and football have changed by far the most. An old boxing match, even Fitz-Corbett, does not seem THAT different if compared to an old basketball game versus the modern NBA or an old four yards and a cloud of dust football game versus the modern NFL.

"the ball bouncing into the stands"

Going back into the dead ball era, the outfield fences were often so far away that they didn't matter, actually as far as 600 feet in one case. Ty Cobb always maintained that in "real" baseball the fences should never be so close that the outfielders could not play most balls, but the fences moving in seems to have begun happening before Ruth although it has accelerated since him. In the World Series and other big games, the crowds often stood behind the players in the outfield in those days.

 

Baseball stadiums were so far away...yet crowds often stood behind the players. Mutually exclusive statements. Fields were very odd shaped. .could be very deep to center, like the Polo Grounds where I actually attended a game, but the left and right field were short...257 to right and 279 to left. In Ebbetts Field fly ball could hit the overhangs and become homers . Other fields , like Forbes in Pittsburg and Braves field in Boston, were huge. Fenway And Wrigley are still around....check out those dimensions. So yes, balls did bounce into stands.

Attendance at th e 1925 Rose Bowl was 53,000.

We were talking about how popular Dempsey vs Ruth and boxing vs baseball that's why I mentioned the national pastime.

More people attended baseball games in the 1920s, more people played baseball in the 1920s than any other sport. The stats are out there, look them up.

 

Right back at ya

 

Marciano beat 4 of the best boxers of his generation, met his no.1 contender more than anyone else and obviously remained undefeated. The worst you can say is that his best opponents were past prime

Lewis might well be the H2H king, fought the biggest range of punchers, defeated all of his opponents and beat the next best heavyweight of the future generation, avoided by Bowe. Lost twice by stoppage despite avenging them emphatically, Tyson and Holyfield were past there best.

These for me are the best two choices, Johnson, Foreman, Holmes & Frazier would come next, but it can all depend of your criteria

 

You can argue for at least 5 different people at #3.

I have Lennox Lewis at that spot.

 

"baseball stadiums were so far away"

???

The fences were far away, and the bigger crowds at big games were standing inside the fences behind the outfielders. There are photos and you can see what I mean. A ball that got by the outfield would go into the crowd. They also sometimes put people inside the stands about the infield.

The rule which covers this is still in the Baseball Rule Book.

"The manager of the home team shall present to the umpire in chief and the opposing manager any ground rules he thinks necessary covering the overflow of spectators upon the playing field, batted or thrown balls into such overflow, or any other contingencies. If these rules are acceptable to the opposing manager, they shall be legal. If these rules are are unacceptable to the opposing manager, the umpire in chief shall make and enforce any special ground rules he thinks are made necessary by ground conditions, which shall not conflict with the official ground rules."

What happened is that balls which got past the outfielder and rolled into the crowd were generally considered ground-rule doubles although in many cases with the fences so far back they might normally have been inside the park home runs.

"balls did bounce into the stands"

And were home runs. The rule making a ball bouncing into the stands a double was adopted by the American League in 1930 and the National League in 1931. This is separate from balls going into spectators standing within the playing field. But what is missing is any direct connection to Babe Ruth. He played most of his career under the bouncing into the stands is a home run rule, and according to what is claimed by historians, lost more home runs via ground rules than he got by bouncing balls into the stands. I assume that would be because he was such a great draw that putting spectators on the playing field was common with him and so he lost inside-the-park home rums. Just a guess, though.

"Ebbets Field. Fenway Park."

Do you know what their dimensions were when they were built? Fenway for example had bleachers put into right field which moved the right field fence in. This was after Ted Williams began his career.

"Polo Grounds"

There were four. You watched game(s) in the one built in 1911 (after a fire destroyed #3) and which was hugely expanded in 1922. As far as I know, the dimensions from 1911 are pretty close to what the final dimensions were. Still, as these dimensions have nothing to do with Ruth, I don't know what point you are making. Do you know the dimensions of the old pre-1911 wooden Polo Grounds.

"Attendance at the 1925 Rose Bowl was 53,000"

Capacity at the time. I don't see the point. College football games at Soldier's Field, which had a capacity of over 100,000, drew over 100,000. As far as I know only Municipal Stadium in Philadelphia and Soldier's Field in Chicago (in the US) had a capacity of 100,000 in the 1920's. Stadiums like the Rose Bowl, the LA Colosseum, and Michigan Stadium were originally built in the 1920's, but with much smaller seating capacities, and were vastly expanded in later years.

"More people attended baseball games in the 1920's. More people played baseball than any other sport. The stats are out there. Look them up."

What is your point? The same would have been true for earlier decades. Baseball was certainly a popular sport long before Ruth, as boxing was before Dempsey. Both men took these sports to new levels, but then college football and other sports were also going to new levels in the 1920's, as were other popular entertainments such as movies. Urbanization, a rising media, and a booming economy had a lot to do with it.

If there was a rival to baseball in the old days as the most popular sport it was probably horse racing.