do you give Joey Maxim credit for stopping Ray Robinson

Yeah ,big puncher Joey.

 

That is odd. Usually its the guy who has the heat stroke who talks crazy.


I think Charlie Fusari could have beaten Robinson if Ray had heat stroke during the fight. Maxim was a good fighter and it was a his shining moment. He deserves and gets credit for the win. Its just amusing to have revisionists come along and make getting a paint job put on you for 12+ rounds a great strategic accomplishment.

Maxim= full credit. Lets not make it more than that.

 

If Robinson had done what Maxim had done they BOTH would have been booed out of the ring. Purses held up for non performance. Somebody had to fight. Since Joey couldnt get off because he was too slow. That was the only reason. It was circumstances. Sometimes luck plays a factor. This was one of those occasions.

I don't hold anything against Maxim as a fighter its just common sense.

 

I give Maxim minimal credit for the win, by virtue of the fact he stayed on his feet for 13 rounds. Likewise, I give him negligible credit for the stoppage - Robinson did that almost entirely to himself, in that heat. In other words, Maxim didn't so much win it, as much as Robinson lost the contest.

So, calling it a great victory for Maxim would be fanciful, as would be the idea that the manner of victory was all part of some pre-fight, master strategy.

Even in the 13th round, when Robinson - by then, looking like he'd been fed four straight Yards of Ale and a Ketamine injection, out-boxed Maxim.

 

Fair post.

 

Yes, it was hot for both of them...hotter though for SRR because he committed himself to a more physical, active, attacking style...being an apex predator, he thought nothing of it...it was second nature...however, it was a bad strategy...he brought the heat prostration on himself. Maxim, meanwhile, was getting it laid on him...because of that, and just being a defensive, low out put sort of guy, preserved his strength and stamina more...either by necessity or by plan (at times)....and that's what panned out as a tko loss for the greatest fighter who ever lived. It was more of a negative achievement by Maxim, contrary to what some of you are so desperately trying to drum up in the interests of classic boxing revisionism, which you're sooo good at.

 

We be on da same page Mistuh Man_Machine! Great, succinct post.

 

Insane, isn't it?

 

the bottom line in this fight is I think that Maxim in fact could hurt Robinson and Robinson couldn't hurt Maxim.

Why?

Size. Size matters.

Up to the Robinson fight, Maxim had fought 19 men who weighed more than 200 lbs, and 35 men in all who weighed more than 190. The over 190 group included a future heavyweight champion and the over 200 group top ten heavyweight contenders. In contrast, Robinson at 157 was nearly 10 lbs. lighter than any listed weight among Joey's opponents. It is like a guy who has been fighting middles and light-heavies suddenly fighting a lightweight. Ordinary punching power at those higher weights might not be so ordinary against the much smaller man. And KO power against smaller men might not be KO power against a much bigger man.

Here are some of the men Maxim stopped and their weights in lbs.

Herbie Katz-----176 (at times top ten rated light-heavy)
Claudio Villar-----200
Ralph DeJohn-----175
Jimmy Webb-----177 (at one time #1 light-heavy contender)
Marty Clark-----204 (decent trial horse)
Clarence Jones-----202
Joe Kahut-----188 (top ten rated at light-heavy & heavyweight)
Freddie Mills-----173 (light-heavy champion)
Dave Whitfield-----181 (top ten rated light-heavy several times)
Hubert Hood-----210

Now this isn't impressive for a light-heavy champion, but it is a moot point at best if Robinson could stop men this big. In fact, he didn't and his biggest victim was about 165.

Also, because the tall Maxim was keeping distance and didn't have to come to him like Robinson's shorter opponents did, Ray's punches were from farther away than usual, and I think the longer a punch travels the less power it generates. So, size aside in a way, Robinson's punches might not have generally been quite as powerful or effective against Maxim because of Joey's height and reach and ability to control distance with his jab.

 

Maxim had a top chin, but I believe Robinson hurt him in several rounds?

 

From the reports I have read, the only time SRR seemed to really trouble Maxim was in the 7th when he drove Maxim back with a right hand. SRR attempted to follow up, but seemed to punch himself out from the sound of it.

Either way, SRR was doing a lot of holding in an effort to keep Maxim from working in close and seemed to tire himself out in the process. Maxim eventually started to come on as the fight progressed and SRR could not longer keep him at bay, and then tracked him down and beat SRR all over the ring.

That's a perfectly legit win.

 

I have watched the full fight many times and I don't think Maxim was ever hurt at all. Most of Robinson's head punches missed or were blocked. He was far away and Maxim had a high guard. Maxim simply blocked those long left hooks with his right. Robinson's right crosses seemed to miss more often than not, either falling short or with Maxim simply avoiding them. Most of Robinson's scoring punches were to the body, but I don't see any evidence they had any impact on the bigger Maxim at all. Maxim's short armed punches to the body though appear to have taken a lot of out Robinson.

All I can say is size matters.

Watch carefully the last minute of the seventh round. Robinson throws all sorts of punches. It is hard to tell how many land well (it is always hard to tell if a punch is really landing well on the shifty and defensively skilled Maxim) but at the end of the exchange Maxim lands a left hook. Robinson looks unsteady to me (his back is to the camera) and backs into a corner, apparently hurt. Maxim follows him in and lands a few body punches in the seconds before the bell.

I think the fight turned then, with Robinson after that going into full retreat mode to avoid exchanging with Maxim. He had learned that he couldn't hurt Maxim but that Maxim could hurt him. The problem with this post 7th round strategy was that Ray was moving around so much more than Maxim. What happens if one man walks forward for six miles and the other runs backwards for twelve miles? Who is going to tire out?

Robinson did land what looked like good right crosses, for example in the third. Maxim walked through them and didn't skip a beat.

I think the pro-Robinson point-of-view under credits the effectiveness of Maxim's jab, which certainly does not appear powerful, but which consistently lands and makes it impossible for Robinson to get close enough to unleash his usual combos. Also overlooked are those short-armed body punches by Maxim. They seem to visibly sap Robinson's strength as the fight dragged on.

p4p Robinson is in another league from Maxim, but Maxim probably entered the ring 20 to 25 lbs.heavier and I repeat that size matters.

As for these one-sided scores, I must concede up front that those fellows were at ringside and I am only watching (and re-watching) the film, but these scores just don't reflect the fight I see. Robinson was ahead but hardly so far ahead that he should have easily taken a one-sided decision even if he repeated in the 14th & 15th rounds his performance from the 12th and 13th.

And I think it fair to ask the guys who think Robby dominated the fight and was landing the better and harder punches why the fight ended as it did with Robinson finished and Maxim dancing a victory jig about the ring.

 

It is fair to ask, but the answer is obvious - because, it takes a greater exertion of energy to put in a dominating performance (Robinson) than merely following your opponent around the ring; using him as a leaning post, occasionally (Maxim).

 

"dominating performance"

When did losing and being unable to finish a fight become a dominating performance.

Maxim finished the fight unmarked and dancing about the ring. Frankly, I think many are overrating how good and effectively Robinson was fighting. He missed most of his punches except for flurries to the body, but those flurries appear to have had less impact than Maxim's body punches, even if it is fair that they impacted the scoring.

I would also ask why Robinson retreated so steadily if he was dominating.

"following you opponent around the ring"

A telling concession, really. Why do you have to chase the guy who is dominating you?

 

Great thread. For now my only contribution is that I will go and watch the fight.