do you give Joey Maxim credit for stopping Ray Robinson

I think it fairly obvious that I was referring to Robinson's performance up until he retired, after the 13th, during which he had expended a lot of energy, in contrast to the pedestrian Maxim. How many rounds did Maxim win, again?

Not really a concession. Who mentioned that Maxim was chasing? Again - how many rounds had Maxim won by the end?

 

"How many rounds did Maxim win, again?"

It is irrelevant in a sense as it doesn't matter if Robinson can't last to take the fight to the cards. Also, as I have said these scores are not the fight I see. I would have had Robinson only slightly ahead, like 7-6 after 13, and fading fast. The officials apparently gave every close round to Robinson. As I concede, they were at ringside and I'm restricted to watching the film. And in fairness, those body flurries by Robinson scored points, even if having no apparent effect on Maxim.

"he had expended a lot of energy"

Why did he? Why didn't he just stand and slug or keep Maxim at bay with a jab if that strategy would have worked? You are assuming retreating was a decision he made, but I think it was all he could do. He found he couldn't stand and trade with this bigger man and he couldn't out jab him.

"Who mentioned that Maxim was chasing?"

I did. If one man plods forward and the other dances away round after round, I call that chasing.

Also, why hold it against Maxim that because he was consistently moving forward he didn't have to move as far as the retreating and circling Robinson? I think it also probably drains more energy to move backward than to walk forward. But there is no law which forced Robinson to fight this way. He had to because he no other good options but jumping in and quickly out w/o exchanging with Maxim.

 

Maxim won 3 rounds in stopping Robinson. Or in other terms, he won one less round than Marciano did when he stopped Walcott.

 

[QUOTE="Man_Machine, post: 19593863, member: 58447"]I give Maxim minimal credit for the win, by virtue of the fact he stayed on his feet for 13 rounds. Likewise, I give him negligible credit for the stoppage - Robinson did that almost entirely to himself, in that heat. In other words, Maxim didn't so much win it, as much as Robinson lost the contest.

So, calling it a great victory for Maxim would be fanciful, as would be the idea that the manner of victory was all part of some pre-fight, master strategy.

Even in the 13th round, when Robinson - by then, looking like he'd been fed four straight Yards of Ale and a Ketamine injection, out-boxed Maxim.[/QUOTE]

But he still won, which is the point. Robinson didn't pace himself and ended up punching himself out despite knowing he had an extremely durable and experienced opponent in front of him. In my opinion making another fighter submit is more impressive than knocking him out. I'd say that this was an amazing victory considering this was the only time that Robinson was ever stopped in over 200 fights and Robinson fought a lot of excellent fighters. It was obvious in the early rounds that Maxim had no interest in trying to outbox Robinson, since Robinson was too fast, so instead he focused on wearing Robinson down, which worked like a charm.

 

This.

 

Its quite a while since I saw the fight,and as I believe you to be a truthful man I will take your word.

 

I would call it a great victory, but it was a victory.

 

No, it's not - because, it links directly to the query you made, as to why the fight ended up the way it did and my response to you in that regard to the same.

Why are you treating the 'circumstance' and the 'decision' as mutually exclusive aspects of the outcome. The approach Robinson took to the fight was based on a decision made, in response to the circumstances. This is not unusual. It doesn't change the fact that Maxim was outclassed for the larger part of the action.

Alas, I do not.

I've not mentioned that I hold anything against Maxim.
I've already argued Robinson was expending more energy than Maxim.
I've not suggested there is a law about how a boxer fights.

How did we get here? All I have done is equate Robinson's performance and the fact that he was way ahead in rounds, up to and including the 13th round, with his greater exertion and use of energy.

 

Yes - Maxim still won and that is the point. I've acknowledged that.
How highly one rates the win and his "stopping Ray Robinson" is down to the individual, is it not?

 

I'm not seeing the relevance.

Marciano took matters into his own hands.
Robinson lost the fight for Maxim.
Unless you buy into the "it was the way we planned it" line from the Maxim camp, then there's no comparison.

 

Maxim wasn't exactly shy in the manner in which he battered SRR around the ring in the 13th. And SRR was having increasing trouble keeping Maxim off him prior to then. I'd say Maxim, in his own way, took advantage of his opportunity.

 

That might be a valid perspective. Not one I would immediately share since I don't recall Maxim battering Robinson around the ring in the 13th. Robinson had been showing signs of increasing heat exhaustion from round-10 and was clearly out on his feet, due to the same, by round-13 - and Maxim couldn't close the show, even at that point.

It wouldn't surprise me if Robinson had been given that round on the cards. Either way, I do not see Maxim's W against Robinson, by way of retirement, as comparable to Marciano's KO of Walcott.

 

Maxim was a much better fighter than Fusari.

It was a paint job for the first half. That's to be expected, since SRR was faster and more athletic. But, even then, SRR was holding a lot in an effort to smother his larger foe. In the second half, especially from the 10th, Maxim looked to be the one in charge as SRR couldn't keep him at bay. I think that might also be expected.

If you take a look at their respective attributes and pit them against one another, I would say that, barring something utterly unexpected, it would be SRR winning early, and Maxim coming on late.

That's what happened when they actually fought. In this case, Maxim was able to catch up with SRR...if not on the cards, then in terms of punishment he was able to inflict.

 

SRR took a count in round 13, and didn't land a punch of consequence. Maxim, in the meantime, landed several hooks to the body and head and clearly won the frame...even without taking into the account the fact that SRR was called down after flopping to the floor off a missed punch. Refs don't do that unless a guy looks to be hurt.

Anyone who calls that round in favor of SRR needs to have their eyes checked.

 

Maxim's win over Robinson was a legitimate victory. He didn't foul Robinson or cheat in any way. He won it fair and square.

However, it was fortunate. Robinson was a mile ahead on points and Maxim did nothing to take matters into his own hands to win by stoppage which was his only means of victory. So he can't be given credit in the same way another fighter would for winning by knockout when faced with an unassailable points deficit.

Maxim only won one of the first ten rounds. I think there's a possibility that when he and his corner realised that he was not going to win on points (probably after round 1!) and that a knockout was very unlikely they decided that their best chance was for Maxim to pace himself and let Robinson wear himself out in the oppressive heat.

Look at round 13. Robinson can barely stand up straight and Maxim is STILL conserving his energy! He doesn't move in on Robinson to try and finish him off. He's still pacing himself.

The conditions were harder for Robinson to deal with because he was fighting a much heavier and stronger man and had to wrestle against more weight in the clinches than Maxim did.

I think Maxim deserves credit for showing so much stamina but it's obvious that in less extreme conditions Robinson would have won the fight comfortably.