At 20 Which heavyweights past or prestent could have won the heavyweight title from Berbick in `86?

Ali improved a lot in his early 20's, that's true. But could he beat a big and strong but slow guy like Berbick at 20? I think so yes. I think Berbick would have a hard time catching up with him and I think he would be unlikely to take him out with one punch. So Ali circles him, goes in and out of range and scores with the jab and combinations on the route to a points victory. I can certainly seeing doing that already at 20.

 

Let's not forget that a shot to pieces Ali still gave Berbick a decent fight. Would he do substantially better as a young fresh 20-year old? I have little doubt about that.

 

My point is Berbick wasn't that much, a decent heavy would have ko'ed Ali that night in 1 round.

 

Berbick being underrated here. Berbick halted Larry Holmes streak of 8 straight wins by ko and Holmes later called Berbick the strongest fighter he ever faced.

 

Yeah, undoubtedly he was strong and he was also quite consistent. But limited. The way a 20 year old Tyson just blew through him was extremely impressive, though. But I don't think you needed to be that great just to get the W.

 

That Berbick was a lot younger and closer to his physical best than the one that Tyson faced.

 

Ali hadn't adequately developed at the age of 20 to be as effective as you think. Keep in mind that Berbick was fresh from a win over the more highly regarded Pinklon Thomas, who at that stage, sported a better jab than the 20 year old version of Ali. Ali wasn't ready for a fighter like Berbick at 20.

1) Patterson was still a Light Heavyweight at the age of 20. I'd favor Berbick over him.
2) Louis took apart Carnera when he was 21. When he was 20 years and 5 months he was still fighting the likes of Adolph Wiater. Could he still win? It's possible. But he certainly wasn't ready for a fighter of Berbick's (Nov 1986) caliber at that stage of his career.
3) Foreman would have dropped a decision loss or lost in a late stoppage.

I think the issue here is we are basing a "[insert name]" vs Berbick fight on the basis on what those fighters became as opposed to what those fighters were at the time. Trouble was that Tyson made it look so easy, that some of us think that any great fighter could have done it without factoring in what they were at the age of 20. The truth was that the majority of fighters, at the age of 20 years and 5 months, would have lost to the Berbick that Tyson faced. There's probably a handful of people who would be able to pull it off and I suspect some of them may be more obscure than imagined.

 

Louis was still 20 for Carnera. One week shy of 21. He was about a half year older than Tyson was for Berbick, so I thought he was still in the same ballpark age wise. That's why I brought it up.

I'm fully aware that Ali wasn't fully developed at 20, but he was already very fast and mobile with a high workrate. Thomas was a much more stationary fighter. A better stylistical match-up for Berbick. Also fighters like Page and Thomas were talented but inconsistent with bad life styles.

And let's not forget that Berbick also had losses against lesser fighters than Bey, Page and Thomas.

A shot and sick Ali gave Berbick a decent fight. It's very, very far fetched to believe that an Ali just some years away from his physical prime couldn't do better and win.

Patterson might have been too small at that stage, though.

 

I don't think anyone would beat him as destructively as Tyson did, no. Well, maybe Foreman. But only maybe.

 

Half a year is a long time when you are making these sort of comparisons.

 

The thread simply asks for "20" tho.

 

1) Berbick was better than you're giving him credit.

2) At 20 Years and 5 Months Clay/Ali was fighting the likes of Billy Daniels and Alejandro Levorante. Berbick would have been too much of a jump for him at that stage. I'd favor Berbick to beat him.

 

Lavorante had a KO victory over Folley, so he was by no means useless. Berbick lost to fighters that didn’t have wins like that.

 

Any reason to believe Louis was a very different fighter six months before he beat Carnera?

 

You're really trying to make this work aren't you? Lavorante was a journeyman with an upset win over a fighter a class above him. Case in point Jesse Ferguson has a win over Ray Mercer but at no point was Ferguson ever considered a better fighter than Berbick.

Bottom line, the Ali who faced Lavorante more than likely loses to Berbick.