At 20 Which heavyweights past or prestent could have won the heavyweight title from Berbick in `86?

Think of it like this, 6 months before the Berbick fight, Tyson faced what was then considered a tough test in James 'Quick' Tillis.

You might be underestimating the development process of fighter.

 

Journeyman? With a win over a top contender, only three losses before Ali and only one of them to an unranked fighter. Thta's certainly not my definition of a journeyman. It could be that he was a bit damaged good after being KO'd by Moore, I don't know, but I can't see that he should qualify as a journeyman.

My money would be on Ali. Berbick certainly lost to worse fighters than that version of Ali and he didn't impress against a version of Ali that certainly was much worse than the one of 1962.

 

Or Tyson just always had weaknesses that could be exploited. You know, as they were against Douglas.

But it will be very hard to prove any which way, so let's just go by the threads "20". Could Louis duplicate beating Berbick at 20? Quite possibly. He was 20 when he beat Carnera.

 

Tyson? Weaknesses exploited? What does this have to do with anything that was said?

I'm talking about the development of a fighter. Any fighter. Why didn't Ali fight a Doug Jones level fighter for his professional debut. Why didn't Joe Louis fight Primo Carnera for his debut fight? You seem to be assuming that the fighter that both Ali and Louis became, was already pre-packaged and ready by the time they were 20 1/2.

Louis was 21 when he beat Carnera. Not 20 as you keep inaccurately claiming.

 

Are we going to call Lavorante a Top Contender now? Alejandro Lavorante, the next great Heavyweight Champion that just didn't materialize. The respective versions of Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas that Berbick beat were more seasoned fighters and therefore presented a more difficult challenge to Berbick than the still learning Ali would present at the age of 20 years and 5 months.

Ali would dramatically improve as time went on.

 

Tillis moved and boxed well. Berbick didn't. That could have something to do with the difference in performance. And Tyson could have had a bit of an off night as well. I wouldn't put it all down to the months in between.

You can't be serious? How many times have I have to point out that I'ms specifically speaking about Ali at 20 before it sinks in. Go over my previous posts in the thread by all means.

Before Ali turned 21 he had easily beaten top 10-20 guys like Miteff, Daniels and Lavorante and a top contender like Moore. He was fast and elusive and had high output with fast jabs and combos. He was still evolving and still largely unproven, but looked good against what he got and certainly much, much better than the walking corpse that actually faced Berbick and kept it reasonably competitive. Don't you agree that Ali was much better in 1962 than in 1981?

Hence, I would give him a good chance against Berbick. The closest you put forth as a counter argument is that he wasn't prime yet and hadn't faced anyone like Berbick. But no one is denying this. We all know this. It just isn't a strong argument for why he couldn't beat Berbick.

True. He was about two months past 20. My bad.

 

Come on, stop the sillyness. I have said nothing along those lines, which you of course know. But he was ranked 4th by The Ring at the end of 1961 and that seems warranted given his wins during that year. His KO loss to Moore had probably knocked him down a bit in the rankings before Ali, but he was hardly a journeyman.

They were more seasoned, but also on booze and drugs. Ali would turn up in top shape and 100% motivated for a big fight like that.

Who are you arguing with here? Because no one has denied that Ali would improve a lot. That doesn't mean he wasn't already a world class fighter 1962.

 

Very few, in fact Tyson and Clay would be the only two imo

 

He does post a lot of threads, some are good, but what cracks me up is your response to all of them. I genuinely belly laugh they are that regular, he posts, you cuss

 

They are a nice watch these fights. He's still developing physically obviously, but the composure, the movement and the combinations are already there to a large degree. I watched the fight against Miteff yesterday and was surprised to see how much he worked the body and on the inside. More than I can remember him doing in any fight since.

 

I am here to entertain my friend! Just ike Carl the groundskeeper after the varmant in "Caddyshack", I pledge to not rest until the classic is purged of irascible imbeciles.

 

Hahaha

 

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Berbick beat a 20 year old Patterson.

 

Daniels was ahead on points at the time of the stoppage. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassius_Clay_vs._Billy_Daniels[/url]
Should he have been?