Jim Jeffries v Rocky Marciano 15rds

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) And by bringing up Corbett's age ( 33 ) and inactivity, you're grinding that ax again, which at this point has little metal left on it to sharpen. Fitzsimmons himself showed how deadly he was post Jeffries 1, and 2. Check the ring results, you'll see.

Corbett was in top shape for the first match, performed well. After the defeat, he beat a very good Kid McCoy a few months later. McCoy was one scheduled to face Jeffries but became ill. Had McCoy won, he likely faced Jeffries next. The fight was an active war.

And by leaving out Rocky's opponents, which in many cases were even older, you're being uneven.

The trainers because better by the 1950's. Jeffries being a good athlete would pick up what was learned since. Not that Rocky really benefited a lot from being in the 1950's style wise on offense, he swings widely and often. His style would be the same in the 1890's, though he'd likely throw less and have hand problems with those 1890 gloves.

Harry Wills once said he would never even think of boxing with the equipment with the old timers used.

 

Yes it’s ok that you think that. However, at world level, weight advantage above 190lb was never the unanimously significant issue it later became before the steroid revolution. And there is a lot of evidence to support this at world level.

 

A lot of evidence? Based on what?

 

"the only big man he ever faced was Shkor"

I don't see how Joe Louis can be dismissed as a big man, at about 6' 2" and 213. He was certainly bigger overall than anyone Jeff ever defeated. And there are others over 210, like Bill Wilson. Marciano fought and KO'd five men at around 6' 2" or taller, and over 210.

But, I do not think this means anything vis-a-vis Jeffries, who is a different quality big man, with the exception of Louis.

*I say bigger overall than anyone Jeff defeated, as Munroe off boxrec weighed 196 for Sharkey eight months before fighting Jeff and was 5' 11.5" tall. Whatever his weight for Jeff, I don't think Munroe was as big a man as Louis.

 

Tommy Burns won title fights where he was outweighed. Dempsey won the title from a much heavier man. Sharkey beat giants. Baer won the title from a heavier man. Braddock was outweighed when he won the title. Joe Louis so successfully defended against heavier men that weight was never considered an advantage against him. Charles was outweighed in title fights he won. Patterson won title fights where he was outweighed. Frazier was outweighed when he won the title. Larry Holmes won title fights where he was outweighed. Leon Spinks won the title as the lighter man. Michael Spinks too.

Isn’t that nearly everyone before the steroid era?

Until boxing changed more dramatically, during the classic era, Extra Weight in itself “at world level” was rarely an advantage once men got past 180lb. You still had to be the “best man” to win. Not just the heaviest.

 

The weakness of the weight pull argument in this case is that Jeff was an outlier in size in his own time who was beating men who were generally not even as big as Marciano's typical opponents.

Or to put it another way, despite his usually massive weight pulls, Jeff failed to win three of his fights, while Marciano, despite being on the wrong end of 25 + lb. weight pulls five times, and quite often at lesser but still significant weight disadvantages, still managed to sweep his opposition.

*I want to add that I would be in your camp if Jeff defeated men his own size, and so much bigger than Marciano. But I personally can't go there when Jeff had so much trouble with men as small or smaller than Marciano and who had nothing like Marciano's record.

 

A big man is someone who would be classed as a SHW sized fighter.

 

The title has changed hands more in favour of the bigger man throughout history. That's a statistical fact.

 

See for me it isn't about the size of men Jeffries faced, it's more than Marciano never beat a world class fighter the size of Jeffries.

 

"Marciano never beat a world class fighter the size of Jeffries"

I think this is a circular argument though, as there weren't any except for Louis, who was around Jeff's size (a bit taller and a bit lighter)

Valdes & Baker would also be a bit lighter (if a bit taller) than Jeff, but they both lost to Moore, the light-heavyweight champion, so hard to see them as a standard.

This type of debate, which is not really about historical fact, allows one to set up any hurdle, such as asking if Jeffries ever defeated a heavyweight champion who weighed more than 195 lbs (as Louis & Walcott did) or asking if Jeff ever defeated an in his prime champion who weighed 185 lbs. The answers will be no, but it is just what one wants to focus on. It is also true Marciano never defeated an in prime champion Jeff's size.

 

Yes, but was it true prior to 1960?

Corbett--no
Fitz--no
Jeff--yes
Hart--didn't win from champ, but beat a smaller man, so yes
Burns--no
Johnson--yes
Willard--yes
Dempsey--no
Tunney--no
Schmeling--I will not count him at all as he won on a foul
Sharkey--yes
Carnera--yes
Baer--no
Braddock--no
Louis--weights were equal when fought Braddock, but overall Louis was the bigger man, so yes
Charles--no
Walcott--yes
Marciano--no
Patterson--actually lighter than Moore, so I think no, but I won't count this one as no one was champ.
Johansson--yes
Patterson--no

Comes out to 10 smaller men, and 9 larger, and I tried to be really fair to the big guys by counting Hart & Louis while not counting Schmeling and Patterson (in 1956).

I think after 1960 there is an increasing trend toward bigger men winning, but my guess is it would still be interesting to see how often the bigger man has won when the title changed hands.

 

I'm not saying it's Marciano's fault, it's just a fact that he never beat a guy who would be a modern sized HW fighter.

Which means any pick for Rocky is a leap of faith.

 

Since no one ever beat Rocky in reality wouldn’t it take a similar leap of faith in the opposite direction to pick against him?

 

Why have 1960 as a cut off?