Jim Jeffries v Rocky Marciano 15rds

"you can compare Rocky with say Usyk"

Sure, but I was thinking more of comparing Jeff to modern super-heavyweights. The size of Jeff's opposition makes any comparison impossible.

And I was thinking only of the unlimited division. A 1900 150 lb fighter is the same weight as a modern 150 lb. fighter and so a comparison can be legit.

 

I will have to study that fight again but last time I watched Johnson he was a very controlled fighter. Yes he used each punch but only when there was a time and a place for each punch. He wasn’t poised to launch a sequence of punches in combination. He worked an opening and carefully used specific parts of the glove for different punches. Sometimes using the heel, sometimes using the top grip part of a clenched fist rather than the front.

I remembered he Fought at a walk. Blocking punches. Holding. He controlled the space and was able to make the space for direct single shots, punched from the front foot. Was able to grip a man by the biceps, pull the guard down release the grip and use the leverage to uppercut the head. He really didn’t waste anything.

 

A SHW sized fighter I agree. Jeffries isn't 6'3 and 230 pounds. That's partly why I don't think Jeffries would be a champ today. But I could picture him being a perennial top 5 fighter today in the HW division.

Rocky I would picture being a CW top contender. I don't think Rocky beats Usyk but the others in that division I think he takes care of.

 

I know, it's listed on boxrec.

 

Vingo, Louis and Shkor are the only people he fought anywhere near world level who could be classed as big. Vingo was 6'4, Shkor was 6'5, Louis was 6'2.

Whether you like the inclusion or not, we don't have a lot to go on regarding Rocky against big men.

As I said, maybe he would have proved himself if their were more big men in his era, as it is, that's all we have.

 

I think it’s certainly possible to make a very good case that the 1951 version of old Joe Louis was still a very good fighter. Louis was the logical contender to Charles when Rocky beat him. He was storming through the ranks on an 8 fight streak. He was favoured to beat Marciano. Watch Louis against Cesar Brion, a really tough young contender. He fought really wel in that one. Brion was trained by Charley Goldman. He turned down Louis as an opponent for Rocky in Brions place, he thought Cesar stood more chance at that time. If you watch Cesar Brion vs Charles he gave Ezzard more trouble than Louis did. So Cesar Brion is a good gage of where Joe Louis still was around that time. Rockys people didn’t really want Joe Louis. The Layne win meant Rocky had to fight Louis.

Don’t think Louis was on a comeback either. He never really went away. from 1948-1950 joe fought 19 times in 1948 (including bouts against Arturo Godoy, Billy Conn and Jimmy Bivins that were certainly competitive), 36 times in 1949 ( including bouts with Curtis Shepherd, Elmer Ray, olimio Agramante, bill Gilliam, Nino Valdes, Rex Layne, Tommy Flynn, Johnny Shkor and Roscoe Tolles) and 24 times in 1950 (including bouts with Pat Valentino, Clarence Henry, Nino Valdes, Henry Hall). 79 fights for the period.

Some dismiss these 79 fights as mere exhibitions but guys were knocked out by Joe Louis here. Some were 10 rounders with News paper decisions. Some Real fights, often with no head guards but no official decision. Then he lost to Charles and won 8 fights in a row.

I think Old Joe Louis was a more prepared professional fighter at that stage than Big Jeff was in his prime. I don’t think Jeff or Ken Norton would go unbeaten against the guys Louis fought from 1948-1951 either.

 

For me that's the key to the whole Rocky at HW argument.

There's circumstantial evidence that he would do well based on him smashing Vingo who was 6'4 and based on him smashing Shkor who was a SHW but was only fringe level.

The strongest argument is Louis, not so much how far he'd fell, but how good he still was.

Maybe one day I'll watch some of the fights but my opinion of Louis from that time isn't very high. He was a deserved number 1 contender, but I struggle to envision that same man becoming a high ranked contender in latter eras.

Then again Ortiz is very old and he's a high ranked contender. Briggs was ranked highly when he was very old.

A decent argument can be made, it just isn't one I've bought into yet.

I'm sold on Jeffries at HW. I'm sold on Rocky at CW.

I'm not sold on Rocky giving up weight at the highest level and succeeding. This fight is way to convince me though.

 

"Yes he used each punch but only when there was a time and a place for each punch."

With a scheduled 45 rounds and it hotter than Hades, what would one expect. Yes, Johnson was clearly pacing himself for the long haul. He was not going to throw caution to the winds to go for an early KO and risk tiring himself out. The two most proven strengths of Jeff were that he was tough and had stamina.

"used each punch"

I admit I don't really understand what you are saying about fighters of that era not being able to throw this or that punch w/o breaking their hands. I just wonder what punch Johnson couldn't, or more importantly, doesn't throw. Off the film, I don't know of a punch he didn't throw.

"he fought at a walk"

Yes, the pace is laughably slow, but then it was scheduled for 45 rounds and it was hot.

What struck me watching is the long periods of wrestling around with almost no punches being thrown. I didn't actually time it, but a think some of the "wrestling clinches" must have gone on for more than a minute.

The film I watched was advertised as "complete" meaning unedited. Most of the films I have seen of Johnson-Jeffries are actually pretty severely edited to make the "action" more "actiony" than it actually was. This "complete" film is unedited, but includes only the 1, 4, & 12-15th rounds.

One other thing I noticed was that Tex Rickard stayed out of the action. He didn't move about much and just stood to the side watching. I don't believe he ever broke the fighters at any point of the film I saw. I can't tell, or course, if he gave verbal break commands, but physically he never broke them.

In the film of Jeffries-Sharkey in 1899, the referee does often step between the men to break them.

 

I take no side on the fix thing, as claiming a fight was a fix was done for almost every fight back then. Boxing had a lot of enemies and the fights being fakes was part of the attack. There were claims the 1902 Jeff-Fitz fight was a fix despite Jeff suffering so much facial damage it looked like he had fallen face first into a silage blower. This would certainly be going the extra mile to make a fix look real.

But McCoy weighed 163 for fights earlier that year. Just another modern super-middleweight. How impressive is it for a fair sized heavy of the era like Corbett to be able to beat a man of this size? And building on that point, when was the last time Corbett beat a quality fighter who weighed at least 170 lbs? I think one would have to go back to Sullivan 8 years earlier.

 

"I struggle to envision that same man becoming a high ranked contender in latter eras."

I question if this is actually the correct question to ask about old Louis. I think the right question would be how would the 1951 Louis have done against Jeff's opposition. Fitz was basically the same age and would be giving up 40 or more lbs. Corbett? Might outspeed old Louis, but who knows. Sharkey? I have a tough time envisioning him not getting jabbed silly. For me it is a big long shot that Sharkey gets lucky and lands a big one, or that Louis wouldn't survive it anyway. The rest? Ruhlin? Finnegan? Old Jackson? Munroe? Forget it.

Even Jeff never beat anyone that big who was that good. I think old Louis might well be able to win a 10 round decision against Jeffries.

 

I like this post and how you explain yourself and our differences.

Just for the record, I might actually rank Jeff in an historical sense (how he did against the field in his own day, which I think is the only fair way to rate heavyweights) higher than you do because while he no longer makes my top ten, I would put him somewhere between 11 to 15. In historical rating he ranks well above Baer or Norton for me. p4p is interesting, and I haven't thought about it much, but Baer & Norton certainly fought a lot more big men.

*I have posted on other threads that I don't think Jeff should be docked for being big. It is a fact of life in heavyweight boxing. And I hold to that for historical rankings. But in these fantasy things I think it fair and necessary to consider the size of the opposition.

"Old Louis"

Well, his only losses were to champions.

"fringe contender"

I personally think an unfairly negative take on a man who held the championship longer than anyone and who only lost at any time to outstanding champions.

 

Again all of this is on boxrec, I don't understand the point you're making.