Was Ali a Klitschko level clincher?

I see people bringing up Ali Frazier II as evidence of Ali's excessive use of clinching. While he did clinch a lot in that fight, and in several others, it was a loose, behind the neck type of clinch that did just enough to limit a fighter getting full torque on his power shots, and generally initiated only after they came into Ali's wheelhouse, i.e. it was a reactive clinch.

Wlad in comparison would actively engage the clinch, sometimes from outside punching range, and clamp himself to his opponent while draping himself over their head and shoulders. In many cases he would actually get up on his toes and push his opponent's head down to their waist so that they were forced to bear almost his entire weight or take a knee to the canvas.

To be honest I'm not even sure what Wlad did could still be called clinching, and is only labelled as such due to their not being a better word for it. It not only totally shut down his opponents' ability to legally punch back, but wore out their back and legs leaving them vulnerable to Wlad's power shots on the outside. It was both a flagrant breaking of the rules that Wlad continued to get away with for years, and an increasingly integral part of his success in the ring, to the point that when he wasn't allowed to do it (either by the ref or the opponent) he looked incredibly vulnerable and limited.

There really is no comparison here.

 

This sums it up really. Even in Ali's most clinch-filled performances there was never a total cessation of normal boxing as there were in almost all of Wlad's later fights, where fighters were constantly being tied up and prevented from throwing even a single meaningful shot.

And like you said, fighters could often work their way out of Ali's clinch if they wanted to, whereas the only way to escape a Wlad hug and drape was to either drop to the canvas (a bad look when you're doing it constantly as Haye found out) or throw him to the canvas yourself (as Chambers attempted to do, till the effort of trying to repeatedly body slam a 245lbs man got too much for him).

Of offensive options you were limited to either rabbit punching him or whacking him in the balls, depending on what he was doing to you. Body shots or uppercuts were impossible to throw due to how tightly he held you. That meant opponents literally had to cheat just to fight on even terms with him, and you can bet referees were quick to enforce any illegal activity from that quarter.

 

Head to head yes, in terms of pure popularity thanks to Nationality and ridiculous hype once again thanks to nationality, then Ali has him beat.

 

Those fighters you name here would totally wreck the 60's and 70's midgets which Ali fought.

 

Lol yeah the 6'3 230 pound Foreman, 6'3 225 pound Ken Norton, 6'3 220 pound Ron Lyle , 6'3 Larry Holmes, 6'5 Chuck Wepner, 6'3 Al Blue Lewis, 6'3 220 to 280 Buster Mathis Sr, 6'4 Joe Bugner, were midgets. I can't believe you haven't been banned yet. You are clearly one of the biggest trolls here.

 

It's the other way arround. People here like to worship their childhood idols. Times goes by and Lennox came in, then Vitali, then Wlad, then Fury and now we also have Joshua.

See a pattern there? The average weights of the 70's is a total joke compared to today. You are deluded.

 

Lol right I just named you fighters who are the exact same size as the fighters you named. Leroy Jones 6'5, Roy Williams 6'5, Al Jones 6'6 Gerry Cooney 6'5. Hell Foreman fought into the late 90's when Wlad turned pro. Lennox Lewis boxed in the 80's. Anthony Joshua is actually smaller than guys like Michael Grant and Lance Whitaker from the 90's. Fighters today are also fat not in shape. Yeah you are a troll looking for attention.......troll spotted......Troll blocked.

 

I have it on my computer. Average weights of ring magazines annual ratings top 10 boxers each year since Ali's era.

 

Please find a new sport to watch please because boxing isn't for you.

 

Height and weight have steadily increased each decade since the 50's. People can look at any Ring top ten list and see the progression. But, people can convince themselves of anything when they have a big enough interest. If it means choosing some big, bummy fighters to compare to current top 10 hws, or exaggerate by an inch and 10 pounds other fighters, then they will do it if it gives them an argument that Ali would be as successful in this era. The fact is both he and Wlad (smartly) relied on their size advantage. They did it in similar, though not identical ways. But there is not question heavy clinching against smaller fighters was a very important and successful tactic for both of them. Since the size of HW's has increased so much over the years, its fairly plain that Ali wouldn't have remotely the level of success today that he did back then. You need to be Wlad's size for it to have that kind of success; logically, its just utterly obvious. But, I've usually reached peace with the fact that most posters just can't accept rational arguments on this. They are not satisfied that Ali, along with Louis, have the two best legacies in the sport. They want to have it all, and want to believe that Ali would beat anyone H2H. Not amount of logic or reason will convince them of otherwise. It would take a time travel machine to prove it to them and they would still make excuses.

 

They are the size of modern cruserweights pretty much. Gassiev or Usyk are around 6'3 and 220 on fight night.

 

And without a weightlimit to cut to they would be around 230+ fight night.

 

Make a whole damning case against the man based on what? Povetkin who never even complained and whose own tactics on the night were as much to blame as Wlad? And remind me what fights Wlad looked vulnerable and limited in because the ref wouldn't let him clinch? The only guy who took Wlad to the cleaners was Corrie Sanders who beat a version that hardly clinched at all. In his last fight age 41 the guy clinching, limited and vulnerable, was Joshua for several torrid rounds. One eyed haters like you missed that of course.

 

He looked vulnerable in both the Jennings and Fury fights. By that point he'd become so reliant on clinching that he couldn't fight fluidly when forced to box on even terms. You could tell his instincts were constantly telling him to clinch after every punch exchange thrown, and it totally messed with his rhythm and state of mind that he wasn't able to do so. Against Jennings it was still enough to win, but against Fury his total inability to control the action either on the outside or the inside caused him to fall apart.

I was actually really impressed by his performance in the Joshua fight, and it's a shame he didn't fight like that during his latter championship run. His early KOs and KDs really messed with his head to the point that he grew terrified of getting into exchanges with any opponents for fear of being stopped again, when the reality of the matter was that he probably could have defended his title just as successfully without blatantly cheating and stinking up the joint the way he did.

 

Bit odd to consider fighters like Haye and Jennings giants and Foreman and Lyle midgets, don't you think? And would those fighters mentioned wreck the 212lbs Wilder as well? Or be favoured to beat Usyk?

Usyk is around 210 on fight night. I don't know what Gassiev weighs, but it's likely around 215. He has the frame to bulk up, but I'm not sure it'd make him a substantially better fighter. Leaned down as he is he possesses sharpness and speed that'd likely diminish the higher up in weight he goes.

Why would someone like Usyk want to come into the ring 230+? What benefit would it be to him?