Making Marciano a lock for the top 5

To be frank, he wouldn't even need 5 fights if we're envisioning all these wild theories. If he retired as he did, and came out of retirement at the peak of Liston's powers, at what age 38, he'd likely be 3 and maybe even no. 2 imo

 

I think there was the introduction of a new weight class and it changed the dynamic of the sport.

 

It's about where someone ranks best. For me Holyfield does better against a field of opposition below 200 pounds, he's my number 2 there all time. Plus he proved that he could make that weight class when it was around.

With Louis it's more a case of where I rank him based in where I think he's fight today. My belief is Louis was big enough that he would still be a HW fighter today and wouldn't have started at CW

 

It dosnt answer the question.

The new weight class was 230lb guys, the Superheavyweight division.

We already had heavyweight

 

No it wasn't. The new weight class was CW which was 190 then upped to 200.

There is no SHW class, that is a fictional term with no real parameters.

 

I agree It’s a pity the automatic rematch clauses took so long. But like other men, ultimately Sonny was a guy great at winning the title, maybe His desire was always going to drop off when he got there?

 

Or maybe he just ran into prime Ali.

 

Cruiserweight made no impression at all. Initially it was just a place for lightheavyweights to go. If anything heavyweights put weight on to avoid going there.

There still was 220lb heavyweights that could lose to Michael Spinks sized guys until 1985...and he didn’t need to be a cruiserweight at all.

What changed was “230 and great”. This was unprecedented.

There had always been 230 pounders but they made no impression on championship boxing for 100 years.

That’s the new division and cut off point for heavyweight. The SHW.

 

That might have just a wee little bit to do with it.

 

No. What changed was the introduction of the CW division.

 

So why did it make no impression when it was introduced? 220 guys thrived for years after that. Holmes, Weaver, Tyson, Thomas, Holyfield all those guys were less than 220 in championship fights.

Had they introduced SHW rather than cruiser it would have made more sense since 180-220 guys had been dominating for years at HW.

Once those 230 guys were good enough to dominate they needed their own weight class. A huge mistake was made introducing cruiserweight, a class that included traditionally sized heavyweights.

 

Wilder has no issues being below 230 today.

The cut off was 200 not 230. Deal with it.

 

That’s like saying Tommy Burns had no problem being less than 180.

The point is these great 230 guys could only exist in their own era. They never existed before.

You asked me to deal with your cut off point. I’m dealing with the wrong cut off being in place. I have a feeling you would wholeheartedly accept 230 being a cut off if it was made official. Why does it need to be official? The evidence stares everyone in the face what was new.

Think about it. What was new dominant 200 pounders or dominant 230 pounders?

 

There is a division for those who weigh up to 200 pounds, it's called Cruiserweight. That is the size of guys like Rocky and Dempsey etc. Anyone bigger is a HW.

 

Hi everyone, in my opinion Rocky didn't have the longevity at the highest level to get anywhere near being one of the top 5 heavyweights of all time. I am not talking on a head to head basis either, just the fact that Rocky only made six defences of the title and only actually faced five different boxers in heavyweight title fights.

When you take into consideration the fact that Rocky fought two guys who were prime at light heavy ( Moore and Charles who were old men and past their prime by any definition ), a thirty seven year old veteran who had lost two of his previous four bouts when Rocky faced him for the title ( Walcott ) , Don C ockell and Roland La Starza.

There are thirteen heavyweight champions who have made more title defenses than Rocky who is equal with Jack Dempsey at six defenses.

Rocky is only twentieth as far as how long a fighter held a version of the heavyweight title. Its a bit surprising to read that Chris Byrd and John Ruiz held various versions of the heavyweight title longer than Rocky was undisputed champ. Not that Byrd or Ruiz deserve to be in this discussion as neither ever held an undisputed version of the crown and neither held and defended a version of the title for as long as Rocky did.

I cannot see how by any fair measuring stick that Rocky gets in the top five. He just didn't face enough good heavyweights or fight at the highest level for long enough to deserve that accolade.

Despite that in my opinion he is one of the most admirable fighters imaginable. He never gave up in a fight and was always in absolute peak fighting condition. Two achievments that many so called greats didnt have on their resumes.

Cheers All.