Joe Louis vs modern giants: settling tbe debate.

OK, I will give you two examples.

I would install Primo Carnera as a betting favorite over Kubrat Pulev.

I would install Buddy Baer as a narrow favorite over Oleg Maskaev.

These men are not exceptional fighters.

 

You are not being logically consistent here, because you are effectively arguing that Louis was successful for no reason.

If a fighter was easy to hit, and had an average chin, there is simply no way that he could dominate for over a decade without being stopped!

I don't even think that questioning the quality of the era would be a good counterargument.

You get eras where the best contender is not all that good compared to other eras, but there is no such thing as an era where the hardest puncher doesn't hit all that hard!

Power is the one attribute ubiquitous to all eras at heavyweight.

At some point you have to explain Louis's decade of not being stopped, and this can only be done by either accepting that he had a good chin, or accepting that he was hard to hit.

There is no option C!

 

My initial problem with this thread is that we are using Buddy Baer as a barometer of a modern SHW fighter... and that is not something I could even come close to wrapping my head around. Buddy was garbage in comparison to the skilled SHW and even HW fighters we've seen since his time. What Louis did with Buddy means F All what he would do with Lewis.

 

I thought it was how their rankings were at year-end... so this is certainly news to me!

 

So when were Martin, Molina, and Chisora in the top 10 then? And how do you know they were ranked?


I agree that some relatively weak fighters get ranked in any era.

 

It probably spells very bad news for somebody like Oleg Maskev say.

Even if you were managing Lewis, you would be worried that Buddy Baer was not able to put up some sort of effective resistance.

 

I think most of them are. So the rankings from the last month of the year. But some of the rankings are from other months and some are actual annual rankings from what I remember.

 

I know that Martin was ranked after he picked up the strap, understandably of course.

 

By the Ring?

 

They were all ranked very recently. Martin when he was ibf belt holder. Molina after he knocked out adamek and Chisora after he knocked out Takam.

I know they were ranked because I follow these kinda things. I used to keep a database on excel of rankings from different weight classes in different years but it became too much of a chore, so now I just use the ring annual until the last one I entered (I stopped buying ring magazine that's why the last few years didn't get done) and I use the tbrb from then because they have a monthly archive.

Yeah any era at all. Even the strongest eras on paper (70s and 90s) both had two of the weakest actual lineal champions in recorded history (Spinks and Briggs) and again I mean no disrespect to the cannon just in case he's still here, I'm just talking in a comparison sense.

 

Yes.

A classic case of a fighters ranking, not accurately representing how good they were.

 

When it says, that (for example) one year's rankings is as it was printed in the April issue - they make it clear, that they mean April the following year!

 

Yeah but little inconsistencies aside it's the best source most of us have.

 

Yes I think Louis was too easy to hit. Films shows why. Slow shuffling type of feet, a low guard, and a stick your face forward type of style.

Louis had fast hands, accuracy and power, that was his best defense. Yet his rounds won to rounds lost ratio is a losing one to the best boxers he met in Schemling, Conn, Charles and Walcott. Medium level contenders like Tommy Farr and Aurto Godoy had their share of success against Louis.

Yes, I think Louis chin was average. He went down quickly from shots didn't he? So how would be be considered good? He's lucky he was facing lower skilled men in many cases. While he went many rounds with Schemling that punch had lingering effect for the entire fight. Schmeling just played it safe until eh right moment came. So he could not recover from one hard right hand.

No, its not impossible to have 25 title defenses ( Should be less, Louis lost the first Walcott fight ), If you're competition isn't the best. Proof? Look at Wlad. Did he have a good chin? No.

I do not think Chisora is anything special. We all know Louis can beat a garden variety big man, and Chisora is a shorted armed type, and not puncher. The question is how would he do vs a skilled big man, with longer arms who can punch.

As for Buddy Bear, he wasn't skilled at all. Which films have you seen him in? This is the main problem with the board, Posters really don't watch a lot of film, and because of they they can say did you see what fighter XYZ did in this match, or how fighter XYZ's jab forced the other guy to retreat all night. Buddy Bear lost quite a few time to no-names if you look at his record, and retired young. Your retort for these losses is what? Essentially he was just a big guy who can hit. The heavyweight division if full of his types today.

No, I'm not having it both ways. His defense was as I stated. His chin average. Where do you disagree?

Do you think Conn or Farr were punchers at heavyweight? Neither do I yet they staggered/stunned Joe Louis. See the films. Braddock who hardly landed much and wasn't a puncher and floored Louis. Same for Galento And Baer flooring Louis early. It wasn't from taking a lot of leather. He simply got hit and went down.

As it was for Louis his power bailed him out, and his opponents in many cases were just too limited to cause a lot of trouble

I never said Walcott wasn't skilled, but Walcott, floored him 3 times. Schmeling was skilled too, and he floored Louis 2x. Defense and chin, or lack theor of on display. Charles was skilled and he badly defeated Louis. Rocky, of course, gave him a brutal knockout.

To summarize:

Medium level punchers floored hurt or stunned Louis. This suggests he did not have a good chin.

Medium level skill guys and I'm being nice by saying medium-level skilled guys who could punch in Galento and Baer, floored Louis quickly with something that landed, not by landing a large number of punches which suggesting his defense wasn't very good.

What skilled punchers fit Louis' face? Schmeling and Marciano. Walcott was skilled and a sharp hitter, and as I said beat Louis in the first fight according to the vast majority of media cards.

What skilled boxers did Louis face? Scheming, Charles, Conn, and Walcott. Louis lost more rounds here than he won here, so there's the defensive portion of the equation.

Chisora should not be in this conversation. He was a low powered garden variety, a contender at best. Maybe he'd stand out more in Louis time. Most agree Louis beats the Chisora types without debate.

The question was could Louis beat a super heavyweight with skills that can box and punch. With his defense and chin, there are going to be lots of challenges.

 

100% correct.