Fight of the Week #12: Leonard v. Hagler

KuRuPT · Jan 11, 2019

I finally sat down and rescored this fight again. A few changes that I did note.. I scored round one even this time... and I remember genuinely scoring it for SRL before. I used to score round 11 for Hagler, but I actually liked SRL work better in round 11. Round 12 I used to score for Hagler, but I scored it even this time. So, here ya go:

1. Even
2. SRL
3. Hagler
4. SRL
5. Hagler
6. SRL
7. Hagler
8. Hagler
9. Hagler
10. Hagler
11. SRL
12. Even

116 - 114 (Hagler)

Donkey Ohtay · Jan 11, 2019

Round 1: Leonard
Round 2: Leonard
Round 3: Hagler
Round 4: Leonard
Round 5: Hagler
Round 6: Leonard
Round 7: Hagler
Round 8: Hagler
Round 9: Hagler
Round 10: Leonard
Round 11: Leonard
Round 12: Leonard

Leonard 115-113 Hagler

Both times I've watched the fight I've had it 5-5 going into the final round, giving Leonard the last 2 rounds. I didn't care much for Leonard's showboating & spitshining, Hagler's plodding forward and occasional wild misses count against him too imo. Ultimately I think Leonard's game plan worked out better than Hagler's, he was more accurate even if Hagler hit harder.
First time I watched it I didn't think there was much controversy, didn't think Hagler did enough in the early & late rounds to earn a draw. This time though round 3, 10 and 12 especially could've gone either way.
Both guys were well past their best, shame they didn't fight in their primes.

NoNeck · Jan 11, 2019

Donkey Ohtay said: ↑

Round 1: Leonard
Round 2: Leonard
Round 3: Hagler
Round 4: Leonard
Round 5: Hagler
Round 6: Leonard
Round 7: Hagler
Round 8: Hagler
Round 9: Hagler
Round 10: Leonard
Round 11: Leonard
Round 12: Leonard

Leonard 115-113 Hagler

Both times I've watched the fight I've had it 5-5 going into the final round, giving Leonard the last 2 rounds. I didn't care much for Leonard's showboating & spitshining, Hagler's plodding forward and occasional wild misses count against him too imo. Ultimately I think Leonard's game plan worked out better than Hagler's, he was more accurate even if Hagler hit harder.
First time I watched it I didn't think there was much controversy, didn't think Hagler did enough in the early & late rounds to earn a draw. This time though round 3, 10 and 12 especially could've gone either way.
Both guys were well past their best, shame they didn't fight in their primes.
Click to expand...

Wild misses, plodding, and showboating mean next to nothing when scoring a fight..

Jel · Jan 11, 2019

NoNeck said: ↑

Wild misses, plodding, and showboating mean next to nothing when scoring a fight..
Click to expand...

That's a bit simplistic, don't you think? They are things that could have an impact on how the judges are viewing the way the action is unfolding.

Donkey Ohtay · Jan 12, 2019

NoNeck said: ↑

Wild misses, plodding, and showboating mean next to nothing when scoring a fight..
Click to expand...

Hagler's aggression was ineffective at times; the wild misses & inability to close the distance is partly down to Sugar Ray's gameplan of staying out of range.
Personally I'd like to see point deductions for obnoxious showboating, but that's down to the referee.

McGrain · Jan 12, 2019

Ray Leonard SD 12 Marvin Hagler

Leonard looks great. Great stick and move. A real nice jab over the top in round two. SOme of these punches are pretty stiff. He's just literally moving, he isn't even doing anything flash just enough to keep Marvin coming onto him. It's way more flat-footed and economic than I remember.

Marvin looks disinterested. In clinches i keep waiting for him to get rough or start mauling, he doesn't do any of it he just hits to the body a bit and that's all. He looks like a wasp with no stinger.

I thought Leonard won a much closer third, too. I love that clumpy left out of the clinch that was still somehow snappy as a punch...Hagler meanwhile lands one or two blows of real significance in this round too. Good punches. But he's missing chances to punch too. More than the movement I think this is what hurt him in 1-3. He's seeing openings but not landing like before.

Fourth round is huge.

I got Leoard. I think that he landed the flat-out better punches in this round. Hagler looks way behind the pace. It's mad when Leonard comes under him and by and Hagler is just two paces off! I don't see this as "smoke and mirrors". I see this as four legitimate rounds in the bank.

The fifth I thought was very close. Leoanrd is now starting to land risky, risky right hands, right hands you shouldn't throw at a fighter like Marvin. On the other hand, Hagler closes this round down with hard punches he looks far more himself. I'd give it to him, just about, based on the fact I think he hurt Leonard in this round. But the sixth is a Leonard round. I don't understand the counter-argument at all. Leonard landed more, he landed sharper looking shots, yes Hagler is the puncher but that doesn't mean he automatically overtakes when he is up against a sharper, busier opponent. Hagler looks arm-weary, slow.

No way back for Hagler that i can see.

He wins the seventh and eighth but i thought the eighth especially was very very close. What's the case against Leonard, that he's "shoe shining"? He's throwing well formed sharp punches. They aren't booming power shots but they are still good punches. Both shattered.

Hagler has dominated the second half of the fight but I think he never was in full control. I don't think he won a single round out of sight and I think that Ray came blasting back in the tenth, two lovely combos win him the round. Hagler is stalking but impotent. Leonard now cannot lose on my card. In the words of Gil Clancey, "Ray has Hagler tamed." I absolutely agree. He now cannot lose on my card.

LEONARD:1,2,3,4,6,10,11,12
HAGLER: 5,7,8,9,

8-4 Leonard.

No controversy.

Jel · Jan 12, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

Ray Leonard SD 12 Marvin Hagler

Leonard looks great. Great stick and move. A real nice jab over the top in round two. SOme of these punches are pretty stiff. He's just literally moving, he isn't even doing anything flash just enough to keep Marvin coming onto him. It's way more flat-footed and economic than I remember.

Marvin looks disinterested. In clinches i keep waiting for him to get rough or start mauling, he doesn't do any of it he just hits to the body a bit and that's all. He looks like a wasp with no stinger.

I thought Leonard won a much closer third, too. I love that clumpy left out of the clinch that was still somehow snappy as a punch...Hagler meanwhile lands one or two blows of real significance in this round too. Good punches. But he's missing chances to punch too. More than the movement I think this is what hurt him in 1-3. He's seeing openings but not landing like before.

Fourth round is huge.

I got Leoard. I think that he landed the flat-out better punches in this round. Hagler looks way behind the pace. It's mad when Leonard comes under him and by and Hagler is just two paces off! I don't see this as "smoke and mirrors". I see this as four legitimate rounds in the bank.

The fifth I thought was very close. Leoanrd is now starting to land risky, risky right hands, right hands you shouldn't throw at a fighter like Marvin. On the other hand, Hagler closes this round down with hard punches he looks far more himself. I'd give it to him, just about, based on the fact I think he hurt Leonard in this round. But the sixth is a Leonard round. I don't understand the counter-argument at all. Leonard landed more, he landed sharper looking shots, yes Hagler is the puncher but that doesn't mean he automatically overtakes when he is up against a sharper, busier opponent. Hagler looks arm-weary, slow.

No way back for Hagler that i can see.

He wins the seventh and eighth but i thought the eighth especially was very very close. What's the case against Leonard, that he's "shoe shining"? He's throwing well formed sharp punches. They aren't booming power shots but they are still good punches. Both shattered.

Hagler has dominated the second half of the fight but I think he never was in full control. I don't think he won a single round out of sight and I think that Ray came blasting back in the tenth, two lovely combos win him the round. Hagler is stalking but impotent. Leonard now cannot lose on my card. In the words of Gil Clancey, "Ray has Hagler tamed." I absolutely agree. He now cannot lose on my card.

LEONARD:1,2,3,4,6,10,11,12
HAGLER: 5,7,8,9,

8-4 Leonard.

No controversy.
Click to expand...

Very good analysis.

The scoring may vary on our cards in the second half (these were very close) but I share the sentiment that Hagler was never fully in control even when he was winning some of those rounds.

I scored the first half exactly same as you and I scored it that way the last time as well.

The only point of controversy in my view is the 118-110 card.

JohnThomas1 · Jan 12, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

Ray Leonard SD 12 Marvin Hagler

Leonard looks great. Great stick and move. A real nice jab over the top in round two. SOme of these punches are pretty stiff. He's just literally moving, he isn't even doing anything flash just enough to keep Marvin coming onto him. It's way more flat-footed and economic than I remember.

Marvin looks disinterested. In clinches i keep waiting for him to get rough or start mauling, he doesn't do any of it he just hits to the body a bit and that's all. He looks like a wasp with no stinger.

I thought Leonard won a much closer third, too. I love that clumpy left out of the clinch that was still somehow snappy as a punch...Hagler meanwhile lands one or two blows of real significance in this round too. Good punches. But he's missing chances to punch too. More than the movement I think this is what hurt him in 1-3. He's seeing openings but not landing like before.

Fourth round is huge.

I got Leoard. I think that he landed the flat-out better punches in this round. Hagler looks way behind the pace. It's mad when Leonard comes under him and by and Hagler is just two paces off! I don't see this as "smoke and mirrors". I see this as four legitimate rounds in the bank.

The fifth I thought was very close. Leoanrd is now starting to land risky, risky right hands, right hands you shouldn't throw at a fighter like Marvin. On the other hand, Hagler closes this round down with hard punches he looks far more himself. I'd give it to him, just about, based on the fact I think he hurt Leonard in this round. But the sixth is a Leonard round. I don't understand the counter-argument at all. Leonard landed more, he landed sharper looking shots, yes Hagler is the puncher but that doesn't mean he automatically overtakes when he is up against a sharper, busier opponent. Hagler looks arm-weary, slow.

No way back for Hagler that i can see.

He wins the seventh and eighth but i thought the eighth especially was very very close. What's the case against Leonard, that he's "shoe shining"? He's throwing well formed sharp punches. They aren't booming power shots but they are still good punches. Both shattered.

Hagler has dominated the second half of the fight but I think he never was in full control. I don't think he won a single round out of sight and I think that Ray came blasting back in the tenth, two lovely combos win him the round. Hagler is stalking but impotent. Leonard now cannot lose on my card. In the words of Gil Clancey, "Ray has Hagler tamed." I absolutely agree. He now cannot lose on my card.

LEONARD:1,2,3,4,6,10,11,12
HAGLER: 5,7,8,9,

8-4 Leonard.

No controversy.
Click to expand...

Brilliant. The only difference at all in our cards is that i saw round 10 even and you gave it to Hagler. Ironically Howard Cosell stated Leonard swept the last three clearly in his mind.

McGrain · Jan 12, 2019

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

Brilliant. The only difference at all in our cards is that i saw round 10 even and you gave it to Hagler.
Click to expand...

Leonard!

I've pretty much finished with this fight. That was my scorecard from a few years ago. I watched it once more after that, the day after I think, and I can't imagine I'll ever watch it again. I'm not a huge Leonard fan and there are definitely other fights you'd want to watch in order to enjoy Hagler.

JohnThomas1 · Jan 12, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

Leonard!

I've pretty much finished with this fight. That was my scorecard from a few years ago. I watched it once more after that, the day after I think, and I can't imagine I'll ever watch it again. I'm not a huge Leonard fan and there are definitely other fights you'd want to watch in order to enjoy Hagler.
Click to expand...

For sure mate. I scored it 115-113 a couple of times years back and was almost identical to that this time. It's good you took the time to go round one more time.

PhillyPhan69 · Jan 12, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

Ray Leonard SD 12 Marvin Hagler

Leonard looks great. Great stick and move. A real nice jab over the top in round two. SOme of these punches are pretty stiff. He's just literally moving, he isn't even doing anything flash just enough to keep Marvin coming onto him. It's way more flat-footed and economic than I remember.

Marvin looks disinterested. In clinches i keep waiting for him to get rough or start mauling, he doesn't do any of it he just hits to the body a bit and that's all. He looks like a wasp with no stinger.

I thought Leonard won a much closer third, too. I love that clumpy left out of the clinch that was still somehow snappy as a punch...Hagler meanwhile lands one or two blows of real significance in this round too. Good punches. But he's missing chances to punch too. More than the movement I think this is what hurt him in 1-3. He's seeing openings but not landing like before.

Fourth round is huge.

I got Leoard. I think that he landed the flat-out better punches in this round. Hagler looks way behind the pace. It's mad when Leonard comes under him and by and Hagler is just two paces off! I don't see this as "smoke and mirrors". I see this as four legitimate rounds in the bank.

The fifth I thought was very close. Leoanrd is now starting to land risky, risky right hands, right hands you shouldn't throw at a fighter like Marvin. On the other hand, Hagler closes this round down with hard punches he looks far more himself. I'd give it to him, just about, based on the fact I think he hurt Leonard in this round. But the sixth is a Leonard round. I don't understand the counter-argument at all. Leonard landed more, he landed sharper looking shots, yes Hagler is the puncher but that doesn't mean he automatically overtakes when he is up against a sharper, busier opponent. Hagler looks arm-weary, slow.

No way back for Hagler that i can see.

He wins the seventh and eighth but i thought the eighth especially was very very close. What's the case against Leonard, that he's "shoe shining"? He's throwing well formed sharp punches. They aren't booming power shots but they are still good punches. Both shattered.

Hagler has dominated the second half of the fight but I think he never was in full control. I don't think he won a single round out of sight and I think that Ray came blasting back in the tenth, two lovely combos win him the round. Hagler is stalking but impotent. Leonard now cannot lose on my card. In the words of Gil Clancey, "Ray has Hagler tamed." I absolutely agree. He now cannot lose on my card.

LEONARD:1,2,3,4,6,10,11,12
HAGLER: 5,7,8,9,

8-4 Leonard.

No controversy.
Click to expand...

Even though I scored narrow for Hagler, I think this is very fair card. I can realistically see 116 for either guy, without thinking it was biased or tilted at all. Enjoyed the analysis that went along with it

PhillyPhan69 · Jan 12, 2019

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

Brilliant. The only difference at all in our cards is that i saw round 10 even and you gave it to Hagler. Ironically Howard Cosell stated Leonard swept the last three clearly in his mind.
Click to expand...

I liked Cosell but TBF he loved Ali and SRL and even watching the interview he did with Ray and Duran after the first fight is tilted very much towards Ray. Not sure I would put much weight in his picks on many fights

NoNeck · Jan 12, 2019

Jel said: ↑

That's a bit simplistic, don't you think? They are things that could have an impact on how the judges are viewing the way the action is unfolding.
Click to expand...

Obviously, one of the judges for this fight turned in a horrible scorecard. But clean, effective punching is the most important scoring criterion and stuff like missing a punch or showboating should have very little impact on the scoring.

This is kind of a tangent, but Fury-Wilder was not a robbery is a good example of this. A lot of rounds were very close in terms of clean punching even though Wilder missed a lot.

JohnThomas1 · Jan 12, 2019

PhillyPhan69 said: ↑

I liked Cosell but TBF he loved Ali and SRL and even watching the interview he did with Ray and Duran after the first fight is tilted very much towards Ray. Not sure I would put much weight in his picks on many fights
Click to expand...

I'm hearing you but to be fair his last 3 rounds align 100% with McGrain who it is fair to say is an unbiased top shelf boxing expert/historian/writer/poster.

The Morlocks · Jan 12, 2019

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

I'm hearing you but to be fair his last 3 rounds align 100% with McGrain who it is fair to say is an unbiased top shelf boxing expert/historian/writer/poster.
Click to expand...

Doesn't take much these days does it?. WOW!!

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Fight of the Week #12: Leonard v. Hagler

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Fight of the Week #12: Leonard v. Hagler

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