Fight of the Week #12: Leonard v. Hagler

Agree. McGrain has a good pair of eyes for boxing, but I see these rounds a little different. Kind of the point of these I guess

 

They fought basically even in the 10th. Hagler was busier and Leonard more efficient. You could shade it either way and i went with an even round. Noway is it a clear Hagler round.

 

Hi,

My first post here. Thank you for this thread as it has been super informative for me.

I have decided to become a fan of boxing recently. Used to watch Friday Night Fights and remember Chavez vs De La Hoya and some other big fights but never scratched the surface.

I have been watching older fights as suggested on this forum and came across this thread and will continue with them.

So this is the first time I have watched this fight and I am very much less informed then the other posters here. So with that disclaimer here is how I scored it:

1 SRL 10 - 9
2 SRL 10 - 9
3 SRL 10 - 9
4 SRL 10 - 9
5 HAG 10 - 9
6 SRL 10 - 9
7 EVEN 10 - 10
8 HAG 10 - 9
9 HAG 10 - 9
10 EVEN 10 - 10
11 SRL 10 - 9
12 EVEN 10 - 10
SRL 117 - 114

perhaps having even rounds is not appropriate?

My overall opinion is that despite Hagler advancing the whole fight, it was clear that Leonard was allowing this and using counter punching and evasion as an effect tactic. Leonard got more clean punches in and more in combination.

Hagler had the best punches in the fight - especially one of those last lefts in the 12th. Did he hit harder? Not sure. Hagler looked the bigger man.

Not sure how Leonard's clinching as part of his tactic should affect the outcome?

Awesome fight and thanks for posting.

I am here for an education, this forum is full of great info like this thread.

Regards

 

I don't overly see an argument for giving it to either hence even steven's. It's a very tight round whichever way I look at it.

 

Touché lol

 

Nice first post! Welcome to the forum. I think even rounds are fine, some use them more liberally than others but that is the fun of diversity of opinion. I didn’t score any even rounds this go around (but sometimes I do), you are not the first to score an even round in this fight not the first to score 3 even rounds in this fight. At the end of the day they are all opinions. Hope you enjoy the forum

 

I think both fighters were feeling it, after round-9.

That said, Hagler was holding it together better in round-10 than Leonard was, who looked spent. This round is one, which I think typifies Leonard somehow giving the impression he was doing better than he actually was. It also characterizes the lack of credit given to Hagler's body punching, which seems to have been a theme throughout the contest.

 

I don't see it this way. Saying Leonard "was somehow giving the impression he was doing better than he actually was" doesn't cut it really. Maybe he was just doing as good as it looked.

You and Unforgiven both score the first round even. The round is clearly Leonard's and that is understating it. Hagler threw what, 3 punches in the first 1.30? Calling the first throw a punch might be overstating it as it was a half pawing right after Leonard had jabbed that fell short by over a foot and possibly two. Then we have a half jab that never looked like reaching. Then we have an attempt at a right hand counter that falls miles short. That is 100% of his offensive output for the entire first half of the round. Leonard has been way busier and doing much better work. Hagler then falls short with a jumping hook. 1.36 of the round and Hagler hasn't landed a punch!!! Hagler finally lands a decent left on the belt line. We are at 1.50 and he has landed a single body blow - total. He then falls short with a jab. Leonard lands a really good right hand and they clinch. Hagler misses a jab miles short. Hagler lands a good shot to the body. Hagler throws about 4 punches in a clinch that have absolutely nothing on them at all. Hagler lands a good body shot with 30 to go. Hagler throws another jab that falls way short. Ding, ding!

That was Haglers entire offensive output. 1.50 and Hagler hasn't landed a single blow. Thru the rest he lands two good body blows and pitter patters a few nothing blows in close. Leonard has dictated who does what and when, he has been far busier, he has landed more blows and he has landed the best blow of the round. He has also made Hagler miss by miles multiple times. The round is clearly Leonard's via any amount of criteria.

 

I'd say moving your arms quickly and landing precisely nothing of consequence, if anything at all, might give a spectator the impression of doing better than they actually are.

I'd say there was nothing special about Leonard working the perimeter and landing on Hagler's gloves, when he stopped to throw something, on occasion. His other non-boxing defense technique was holding. Not impressive either.

If you want to make it all about punch count, then there really isn't that much in it, to swing the round to Leonard, either - given he spends the significant majority of it staying out range of the action or holding.

Running around the ring, out of range of the action (entirely) is neither Ring Generalship nor Defense and it certainly isn't Effective Aggression. So I'm not sure what criteria you're actually using. If you want to score a round for Leonard for making a guy look bad then there's plenty of Boxers missing a trick in their strategies on how to win fights.

I'm happy with an Even round. I'm more than happy that Hagler won the Tenth.

 

Thankfully on close inspection Leonard landed plenty as well.

Leonard landed more than Hagler in the first round. Leonard threw substantially more than Hagler in the first round. Leonard evaded punches better than Hagler in the first round. Leonard landed the best punch of the round. There was just four clinches which is bugger all. Being able to clinch effectively and use it to your advantage is a skill. There was no excessive or illegal holding. What was Hagler doing in the clinches? Duran mauled Leonard in the clinches and he was the smaller man who had moved up not vice versa. Leonard had much less success clinching Duran.

I didn't make it all about punch count but rest assured Leonard had that covered in round 1. There were just three clinches. They total up to about 16 seconds. In the third clinch Leonard held Hagler's head yet Hagler despite having both arms free did nothing. The mind boggles.

When you punctuate it with attacking forays it's certainly not near as bad as you try to portray it and it's far better than plodding around barely ever punching and hitting mostly air when you do. Simply put Leonard outboxed him. Where was the cutting off the ring by Hagler? There was certainly no effective aggression from him that's for sure. I can't pretend that throwing more punches and landing more punches doesn't matter, that's for certain.

I would say you could oh so narrowly give the 10th to either fighter but even is most certainly fair. As for round 1, not a chance it goes anywhere but to Leonard.

 

I think you're looking too hard, mate. Take your 'readers' off; step back a little and try the distance lenses - lol -

I can't see us ever agreeing on this. At the end of the day, it wasn't a particularly eventful round, with what I would call, in the main, negative tactics from Leonard. So, it's nowhere near as good as you try to portray, either. And, you give Hagler no credit at all, which doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Simply put, Leonard 'outran' him. Sure, Hagler looked bad - He was aging and ring-worn; beginning to creak a bit and found himself chasing a guy, who was quite happy to run around, out of range and then hold, whenever Hagler caught up with him. You say there was no effective aggression from Hagler but, I would suggest that if a boxer is forcing their opponent to hold, whenever he gets close enough to throw a few, then it follows that their aggression is having an 'effect'. Holding is technically illegal and so, while used as a last resort, should neither be scored as good defense nor reflect badly on the aggressor.

The 10th wasn't a difficult round to score to Hagler, for me. Both were feeling the pace, but Leonard was ragged; Hagler, relentless.

Not much else to say about the first. Even if I'd given it to Leonard, my card still has Hagler winning 115-113.

 

Feel free to keep posting your cards, but I am done tabulating lol. 15 cards is the top week we have had...let’s shoot for 20 in one of the upcoming weeks! Thanks to @mrkoolkevin for posting these threads and the other 14 who posted cards and added to the discussion.

Controversy yes! Robbery NO....the 118-110 card seems to be the ugly point!


Hagler cards 6
Leonard cards 4
Draw cards 5

RBR
1 Leonard 10-0-5
2 Leonard 15-0-0
3 Leonard 8-6-1 (tight)
4 Leonard 15-0-0
5 Hagler 15-0-0
6 Leonard 15-0-0
7 Hagler 13-0-2
8 Hagler 15-0-0
9 Hagler 15-0-0
10 Hagler 10-3-2
11 Leonard 11-3-1
12 Hagler 8-5-2 (tight)

Rounds 3 & 12 seem the most controversial/debatable and how you scored them likely is who you have winning.

Hagler Cards:
PhillyPhan69 115-113
@Pat M 115-114
@Unforgiven 117-113
@Man_Machine 116-113
@redrooster 116-115
@KuRuPT 116-114

Leonard cards
@JohnThomas1 116-113
@Donkey Ohtay 115-113
@McGrain 116-112
@The Glamour 117-114

Draw cards
@mrkoolkevin 114-114
@NoNeck 114-114
@surfinghb 114-114
@PernellSweetPea 114-114
@Jel 114-114

Thanks again to everyone for making this a fun discussion

Edit: corrected wrote Unforgiven twice and excluded PernellSweetPea + inadvertently wrote Hagler for round 11 when that should have read Leonard....fixed

 

Thanks for posting this Philly, and I love looking at these breakdowns totals. Very interesting and I do think round 3 and 12 do swing things one way or another. Plus you have round 10, where people are really split on how to judge that round. Good job bud.

Quick question though... did Unforgiven really score it twice? One for Hagler and one even? That wily Unforgiven goes from the Widest card and throws out an even vote to even things out some...