Is Mike Tyson greater than Lennox Lewis on the all time greatest heavyweight ranking?

I rate Lewis higher, but Tyson is underrated IMO. People give him more flak for dominating a weak era than they give others for ducking opponents.

I think Lewis's resume is better, but TBH what is high best win? A past it Holyfield. Still a very good resume, you can say that stuff about nearly anyone in truth, but the gap isn't as massive as made out.

 

It's silly though because Tyson also peaked way younger. Lennox Lewis was 29 when he lost to Oliver McCall. Tyson was 21 when he KOed Larry Holmes.

Longevity should be about how long you are at the top, not just how old.

 

And how long was Tyson on top a year or two, maybe 3-4 fights? Larry Holmes was 39 when Tyson knocked him out i wouldn't exactly call that "at the top". Also worth pointing out Lennox didn't debut until he was 24 so obviously his best fights were at a later age.

Anyway, all i was saying was it's absurd to count the younger Tyson not being able to sustain himself as well as Lewis as a mark against Lewis' legacy, surely it's a mark against his own since it was no ones fault but his own. And the comparison was between two fighters with nine year age gaps and two fighters a year apart with the younger fighter being excused.

 

Fergy will be grinning like a Cheshire Cat right now.

 

"Never manned up" meaning what exactly?

 

Meaning he never avenged any of his losses.

He never fought Douglas again and he turned it up in the Holyfield rematch and disgraced himself. His other losses were at the finish of his career when he was incapable of avenging them anyway.

Lennox avenged both of his defeat and can truly say he beat every person he fought. Tyson can't do that. That's yet another reason why Lewis should be ranked higher all time than Tyson.

 

I have Tyson #6 and Lewis #7.

Accomplishments

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: youngest to win heavyweight title.
Only heavyweight to unify all 3 belts one by one.
One of only three heavyweights (Ali and Foreman) to regain the championship 10 years after first winning it.
Ranked #1 in Ring magazine P4P rankings 3 years in a row - 1987, 1988 and 1989.
12-4 record in title fights.

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3-time heavyweight champion, one of only three to accomplish feat (Ali and Holyfield).
Unified/Undisputed champion.
Defeated every opponent faced.
Avenged every defeat.
15-2-1 record in title fights.

I've researched and included certain statistics for Tyson and Lewis based on their opponent's win/loss record:

Tyson 50-6-0 (44ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1334-213-17
Opp Winning %-85.3
Winning %-89.3
Overall Ranking: 87.3

Lewis 41-2-1 (32ko's)
Opp W/L/D-1124-240-23
Opp Winning %-81.0
Winning %-93.3
Overall Ranking: 87.2


Who fought the better overall competition?

I've highlighted in

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the opponents who were champions or had title shots before they fought Tyson or Lewis. I do not include WBO champions. Here are the comparisons:

MIKE TYSON

Ferguson

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Green

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Ribalta
Ratliff

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Biggs

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Tillman
Stewart
Ruddock
Ruddock

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Orlin Norris
Julius Francis
Lou Savarese

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Brian Nielsen

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Cliff Etienne



LENNOX LEWIS

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Gary Mason

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Glenn McCrory

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Levi Billups
Razor Ruddock

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Phil Jackson
Oliver McCall
Lionel Butler
Justin Fortune
Tommy Morrison
Ray Mercer

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Henry Akinwande
Andrew Golota
Shannon Briggs
Zelijko Mavrovic

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Michael Grant

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David Tua
Hasim Rahman

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Vitali Klitschko


Tyson fought the more skilled fighters while Lewis fought the bigger hitters. What's more impressive: beating the skilled fighters or beating the harder hitters with less skills? Lennox Lewis had a tougher time beating his opposition than Mike Tyson did. Of course there is more to be debated but I thought I'd get the ball rolling.

 

Not Tyson's fault he didn't rematch Douglas. And before Holyfield, he was 2-0 in rematches. And there are so many ATG heavyweights who didn't avenge defeats. I understand your claim but that doesn't make them inferior to Lennox Lewis. Lewis shouldn't have lost to McCall and Rahman in the first place.

 

That must make me intelligent as well!

My answer to the OP's question is no.

 

Depends who and what circumstance.

For example I give Ali a pass for not avenging his defeats to Holmes and Berbick just as I give Tyson a pass for not avenging his losses to Lewis, Williams and McBride. I don't know the circumstances of the Douglas rematch not occuring so won't comment on it but Tyson had a great chance to cement his legacy in the Holyfield rematch but folded and fouled out in the most embarrassing and disgraceful circumstances I've seen. As for Tyson being 2-0 in rematches prior to the Holyfield rematch, please. Bruno was barely competitive in their first fight and was a soft touch title fight for Tyson. Ruddock gave Tyson fits in the rematch but Ruddock simply wasn't that good as Lewis subsequently showed. Tys

To be honest I rate every heavyweight who isn't called Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis as inferior to Lennox Lewis anyway so that's probably a yes to that question.

 

I just finished editing my post that you're replying to. Sorry about that. Um, I dock some points from Lewis because of his KO defeats. He shouldn't have lost to McCall and Rahman in the first place. And the way he lost is extremely damaging to his career. Avenging those defeats saved his azz. Still, avenging destructive losses doesn't erase them. LL also had some close calls against Mercer and the Holyfield rematch. Not docking him for it but I made a post comparing Tyson and Lewis against their competition. Check it out if you haven't already. It's near the top of this page.

 

So What's the excuse for the Rahman KO loss? Steward had trained Lewis for almost 6yrs when that happened.

 

I got Lewis at 4 and Tyson at 7 currently. But my list changes quite often.

 

I rate fighters based on 5 Criteria:

1) Tenure as Champion
2) Quality of Opposition
3) Notable Losses/Omissions
4) Ability as a Fighter
5) Historical Significance

1) Mike Tyson's reign as THE MAN from 1986-1990 was easily one of the more ruthless and dominant reigns in Heavyweight history. Not only did he unify the belts one by one eliminating any claimants to the throne, but he also cleaned out the division by beating even the former champions, all in dominant fashion mind you, to eliminate any doubt as to who the man was. He recorded 9 consecutive title defenses against the top fighters of the division during his first run and then 10 years after he won the title WBC title, he recaptured it again in dominant fashion while attempting to reunify the belts again. He amassed an impressive overall 12-4 record in title fights. The greatest achievement of his reign was that it restored order in the division via a consolidation of the titles.

Lewis's reign is a little bit different. For starters he technically won his first title in a courtroom, so his first run as WBC Champion didn't give him the type of credibility that winning the title in the ring in dominant fashion usually would have. Additionally in 1993/94 Lewis wasn't really considered THE MAN; Holyfield and Bowe held that distinction while Lennox remained a top fighter and paper champ. Before he was able to unify, he loses his WBC title to an unheralded Oliver McCall only to regain it after 3 years against McCall in an interim title fight where McCall seemed to be having nervous breakdown. So for all intents and purposes Lewis's reign as THE MAN was from 1999-2003, before that he was a top contender with a belt who was second fiddle to Bowe, Tyson and Holyfield respectively. He was able to amass an impressive 15-2-1 (should really be 16-2) record in title fights as a result of his fragmented title reigns. Unlike Tyson, Lewis never bothered to keep the titles intact and would happy sell (IBF Belt to Chris Byrd) or relinquish (WBA Belt to John Ruiz) a belt if he couldn't be bothered to defend his titles.

ADVANTAGE: TYSON

2) This is a topic which I think requires a bit more attention; so I took the liberty of listing both fighters top 15 names on their resume and who they were at the time they fought.

Mike Tyson TOP 15 NAMES:

1) Micheal Spinks (Undefeated Lineal Champion)
2) Tony Tucker (Undefeated IBF Champion)
3) Razor Ruddock (#2 Ranked Contender All 3 Bodies) X 2
4) Pinklon Thomas (Fmr WBC champ/#1 Rank WBC)
5) Larry Holmes (Fmr Lineal Champion)
6) Bonecrusher Smith (WBA Champion)
7) Frank Bruno (#2 Ranked All 3 Bodies/WBC Champ) X 2
8) Trevor Berbick (WBC Champion)
9) Tony Tubbs (#2 Ranked All 3 Bodies + Fmr WBA Champ)
10) Carl Williams (#1 Ranked IBF)
11) Andrew Golota (#9 Ranked Contender WBC)
12) Frans Botha (#1 Ranked IBF Contender + Fmr IBF Champ)
13) Tyrell Biggs (#1 Ranked Contender All 3 Bodies)
14) Bruce Seldon (WBA Champion)
15) Alex Stewart (#3 Ranked Contender All 3 Bodies)

Lennox Lewis TOP 15 NAMES:

1. Vitali Klitschko (#1 Ranked Conteder WBA/WBC)
2. Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock (#1 Ranked Contender WBC)
3. Evander Holyfield (WBA/IBF Champion + Fmr Lineal Undisputed Champion)
4. Mike Tyson (#1 Ranked Contender WBC + Fmr Lineal Undisputed Champion)
5. Ray Mercer
6. Tommy Morrison (#2 Ranked Contender WBC)
7. David Tua (#1 Ranked Contender WBC)
8. Andrew Golota (#1 Ranked Contender WBC)
9. Frans Botha (#9 Ranked Contender WBC + Fmr IBF Champ)
10. Frank Bruno (#5 Ranked Contender All 3 bodies)
11. Shannon Briggs (Lineal Titlist)
12. Micheal Grant (#2 Ranked Contender WBC/IBF)
13. Tony Tucker (#1 Ranked Contender WBC + Fmr IBF Champ)
14. Hasim Rahman (Lineal Champion)
15. Oliver McCall (Fmr WBC Champion)

When you factor in who they were at the time, the physical condition and stage of their careers a lot of the flash from Lewis's resume evaporates when you consider that Holyfield, Tyson, Morrison were pretty shopworn.

ADVANTAGE: EVEN

3. Tyson lost to Douglas, Holyfield 2X, Lewis, Williams and McBride. Tyson was a shell in the Lewis fight and completely shot against Williams and McBride.Tyson also never avenged a loss, while some can claim that he never had an opportunity with Douglas, he did have one with Holyfield that didn't work out. To be fair Lewis offered him a rematch which, Tyson declined on the basis that he was not in the right condition to take on the challenge. In terms of omissions, Tyson didn't really have those issues, with the exception of Riddick Bowe, Tyson fought everyone he was expected to fight during his career.

Lewis on other hand has McCall and Rahman; fighter's who with all due respect have no business in the win column against Lewis. To be fair he did avenge each of them and has to date beaten every man he's faced.

In terms of omissions? Lewis had a tendency to price himself out of fights and claim he's being ducked but when he's offered a lucrative rematch he just can't be bothered. He shoulder's the blame with Bowe, he takes the blame for a Tyson fight not taking place in 1996/1997, he takes the blame for not accepting the $20 million dollar offer from Ray Mercer who wanted a rematch and finally the Vitaly rematch that he turned down while pursuing Kirk Johnson before deciding to scrap it altogether and retire.

Either way for the purposes of this comparison it's totally immaterial.

ADVANTAGE: LEWIS

4. This is probably the most subjective criterion. They have two completely different styles; both incredibly skilled in their own way. At one point Mike Tyson was #1 p4p (1987-89) above Chavez, Whitaker, Nunn, Hagler and Duran. There has never been a Heavyweight Champion past or present with a better combination of both speed and power. There was a time where he appeared to have no flaws; always in perfect balance, was rarely hit with punches, he could end the fight with 1 punch on either hand and he could out jab taller fighters while outworking them over 12 to a wide decision. You had to beat the hell out of him to beat him. I rate him #2 on the H2H list right behind Muhammad Ali
but ahead of Louis, Holmes and Foreman.

For all the flack that Lewis gets about his chin, he fought an awful lot of punchers and manged to stay upright all but 2 times. Lewis was master technician in his own right with a top 5 Heavyweight jab and a monster right hand. He would likely be favored over the majority of Heavyweights past or present. Head to Head I have him at #6 behind Ali, Tyson, Holmes, Louis and Foreman. I will add that it's a bit concerning that he can get short circuited not once but twice by average fighters who aren't even considered dangerous punchers.

ADVANTAGE: TYSON

5. Mike Tyson was the youngest ever Heavyweight Champion, a record that remains unbroken more than 30 years later. He is unequivocally the benchmark fighter of his generation and has transcended the sport as an iconic public figure who was a first ballot HOF.

Lewis joins the elite club of being a 3 time Heavyweight Champion who has beaten every man he's faced and like Tunney and Marciano joins the elite club of retiring on top while champion.

ADVANTAGE: TYSON

My LIST:

TOP 25 ATG HW LIST

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Lennox Lewis
8. George Foreman
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Joe Frazier

11. Wladimir Klitschko
12. Jack Dempsey
13. Sonny Liston
14. Sam Langford
15. Harry Wills
16. Jim Jeffries
17. Ezzard Charles
18. Floyd Patterson
19. Riddick Bowe
20. Vitaly Klitschko

21. Jersey Joe Walcott
22. Gene Tunney
23. John Sullivan
24. Ken Norton
25. James Corbett