Greatest wins of James J Jeffries?

Still waiting on that explanation on why Johnson didn't have the power to KO Jeffries before Jeffries retired?

 

Johnson can be a tricky one to figure out. There are a few great champs who always get the argument that they never defeated a great fighter who was in his prime. The best names on his winning ledger certainly fall into this category, Fitz, Langford, Jeanette, McVea, Jeffries... I don't give a lot of credence to Burns being a true heavy or representative of how Johnson would perform against an authentic heavy as we have come to know them. Where does one point the finger to and say that is prime heavyweight Johnson? If it is against Jeffries, that is a poor canvas upon which to paint your masterpiece. It really tells us very little.

 

How many great fighters in their primes did Jeffries defeat ?
Corbett?
Willard?
Dempsey?
Tunney?
Marciano?
Patterson?
Johannson?
etc
The very nature of the sport precludes this being a commonplace occurrence.
How many"authentic heavyweights as we have come to know them."
Did Corbett, Jeffries,Tunney etc beat?

 

I agree on all accounts, tho to nitpick, Johannson beat a prime Patterson who was great. And that equation doesn't work the other way around.

In regards to Johnson, the victims are just so far off the mark for reasons that have been covered ad nauseum. Obviously, the best win would be a Jeffries who wasn't ducking him so he has that going for him as negative proof. But as far as positive proof of his prime, we have some class performances against midgets, a couple middling performances with O'Brien and Johnson, the beating of an old, alfalfa farmer. That leaves Flynn and Kaufmann?

And I get the bigger picture... Johnson was basically an outlaw in every sense of the word, both within and outside of the legal sense. He was fighting for survival, not the for opinion of some web commentator a century hence.

 

For me, I would say his pre-title run is where the body of work looks most impressive. Starting with the Griffin bout in 02', he has two wins over the vastly more experienced Childs, 2 wins over the one time black HW Champion Denver Ed Martin, 3 wins over Sandy Ferguson, 3 wins over Sam McVea, 6 wins vs. Jeannette, Fireman Jim Flynn and Young Peter Jackson. If you take away the controversial Hart loss, which many think he won, he would've gone almost 15 years without really losing a fight. I don't care who you're fighting, if you go that long without losing a match, while also winning the Black HW title (which wasn't easy in and of itself) with the type of pressure he was under... I'd say that type of resume looks pretty darn good.

 

So, when was his heavyweight prime?

 

I've no problem with your take on it S.

 

My best guess would be that he was at his physical prime for the Burns bout. The thing is, back then there was no real HW prime as we would think of today. You didn't have to weight x amount to compete in the division. Most champions prior to Louis, and even some after were at 200 or below. So I would think his prime was between 06' - 10'... depending on what you like.

 

I think it was after he won the title, he just didn't have the matches to prove it,and you can lay the blame for that where you see fit.To give another example ,I think Ali's prime was during his 3.5 years of exile.

 

Primes are always pretty much a cross roads of experience, activity, preparation and age .. Johnson was likely in his prime physically from Hart to Burns .. after that he gained weight, you could see his body was smoother and he was getting older. Like Holmes against Cooney Jack was likely slightly pst his best or at the tail end of it for his most publicized battle.

 

Johnson's pre-title run was impressive?

He got iced early by Choynski ( who was past his best ) , TKo'd by Klondike, and lost to Griffin ( who was past his best )

He drew Scanlan, Stift and Everett and McCormick ( Who he had trouble with in 1906 )

And he lost to Hart.

While I agree Ed Martin was a good name, he was KO'd early several times and could not take punches to the head or body.

McVey was just a teenager when Johnson fought him. Ferguson, not that good, and he gave Johnson some trouble. Jeannette a novice with a losing record. Flynn a teir two white hope. Young Peter, Johnson failed to stop him even though he had a lot of size and weight with an incentive to do so.

Johnson's pre-title run is very uneven, and when you read many of the fights, he struggled, went low at times, and failed to finish shopworn fighters.

I'd say the best he met pre-title run in terms of their experience and condition when he met them were Hart, Choynski, and Martin. He has a losing record here. Any factual disagreements on the above?

 

You get it. Flynn was a game man, but not very good. I don't think he was ever considered a top three heavyweight while Johnson was Champion. Maybe not top 5! Kaufmann couldn't fight and lost many matches pst Johnson. Probably Johnson's easiest title win.

The O'Brien fight exposes Johnson's defense, and other fights he won, such as Kethcel, and Ross, show a shaky chin in the few times they landed.

Dempsey's, Louis and Marciano's competition is sometimes questioned here, but oh my would they have destroyed people Johnson defeated or drew with in title matches and done so without struggling as Joshnon sometimes did.

From 1909-1914, a 5 year run can anyone here name a weaker title run?

Use the years 1920 to current.

 

Bit,

Sam McVey can be seen on film in what can be considered his prime or near prime, and he's below average skill wise, even for the time he fought in. Battling Jim Johnson got the better of the footage shown forcing McVey to retreat. Sam McVey was a left hooker only type, Sam Langford said he could not jab because he was bow armed. I have read some of Mcvey's matches. He's not as tough as he looks.

At any rate, McVey has a confirmed 5 fights at box rec and was but 18 years old. Johnson, by contrast, was 24 years old, had over 20 matches. The loss really should not count that heavily against McVey, and the win for Johnson needs to be put into perspective. Which all time great out there gets credit for beating someone at age 18 only 5 confirmed fight listed? No one I can think of!

Johnson defeated Sea McVey two more times in the following year when he was 19. Then Sam McVey lost in 1904 to Ed Martin, and quit boxing until 1906. The loss to Martin tells me how bad and green McVey must have been as Martin had a glass body and glass jaw, and McVey could hit.