Without PED would Evander Holyfield have been as successul in the heavyweight division as was?

Good Choklab, I am glad you parsed some of my individual points. I respect your intelligence & depth of knowledge, & while sometimes your points are valid as individual facts & do not refure mine, I'll bet you do well in sticking to my responses with intellectual rigor.


1) You mean to imply it could be that EVERYONE or nearly all were using? This is literally true, but it is not at all likely.
Just consider the example you used. It is not a proper analogy to go from "wiidespread" to saying it is at all likely virtually everyone used.
The former could be well under half, the large majority-anyway that is very different from everyone!
Also the sports where it seems most common are those where it helps most directly for a brute ability-like weightlifting, blood doing for long distance cycling...Even then, when performance is much less influenced by complex skills, you cannot say that, say all Onlympic lidters cheat.

But many do. But we do not KNOW what percentage dabbled or used heavily.

2) I am clearly describing the size progression of individuals. When someone does not get beyond a certain size, or grow very rapidly when already wekk developed, or have another overt sign-you just do not know.
Now you are discussing the overall size of guys. SURE, part of that is drug use.

But also, if steroids never were even invented, the culture of weight training, & rule shfits favoring shorter fights, bigger gloves, allowing more clinching...And more humans around, better training to maximaize skills...You know the dude here who describes how the giants have better training fortheir skills? He is correct.

BMI is a BAD measure, terribly flawed. It does not take into account bone or muscle mass at all.
You can be overweight in reality, or vice versa, & just fine on the chart.
Drugs are PART of the reason for the expansion of size.
But others do not use at all, there are just more guys around, rules shifts favoring bulk & strength, & more knowledge about how to bulk up effectively & make it work in a power sport.

3) You can never know what percentage were unnaturally enhanced. That is my whole point.
It is fair to say many likely were. We do not know if that is a distinct minority or the vast majority-or something in between.

4) The prolongation of careers must sometimes be because of PEDs. Balding heavily muscled guys TEND to use-but some men go bald early anyway.
It also would occur due to improved training. Grandpa Foreman could have used-I see know reason to suspect it was likely.
You cannot presume all athletic outliars are either natural or cheats & liars.

5) Going from HW to CW, evemn endlessly, is not a big shift. at all.
If you meant to communicate OK< but modern HW size, not just the minimum permitted...
Still not very surprising, since guys routinely rehydrate near or over 10%.
Fight night weight is not gonna be very far from HW...In fact they can mostly or entirly just permit themselves to not be very lean at HW.

6) Not losing wind? How does gear help with that? And the Big Men, certainly the juicers, tend to have worse cardio!
Just carrying around a lot of muscle does that. Joshua. Bruno before him, guys this size cannot oxygenate as well.
Maybe Lewis in his later career was about the limit of size one can be with decent cardio.

7) Re: Naive: yes, but I am objecting to the opposite of the foolishness that everyone is innocent (in reality) unyil proven guilty.
That is true & fair for individuals, but I would never suggest-& keep saying otherwise-that only those who test dirty are guilty.
But I keep trying to communicate that the converse of that hopelessly credulous position is equally irrational...
That everyone must have used! That is an extreme, logically untenable, & unfair presumption.

8) We agree completely about Tyson. Unfortunately if many like or hate a fighter, they are very biased.
Tyson fought good competition in his prime-& at a rapid clip. Better than most HWs.

 

It is quite possible, when Tyson was already big-& he also lost body fat & added muscle.
Wass you hate Tyson; you HOPE he used PEDs...He may have, but point to nothing at all that makes it likely.
Holyfield pre-puberty would have been tiny compared to a natural Tyson.
Holyfield was an ATG-but the evidence shows he DID use to compete with The Big Boys.
The health problems & varying performances & balding would only be suggestive.
We have well known evidence you can scan on his wikipedia page that means he all but certainly drugged up to get big & strong-& whatever training advantages such as rapid recovery accrued.

 

He is not as havily muscled & gained body fat. That itself is routine for ex-athletes.
I am always very careful about assuming guilt. But some non-testing evidence is as convincing as anything, just as some circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. If it was JUST his suspect health issues, varying performances, balding..I would say that it is very possible, not all but certain.
Theis summary of facts from Wikipedia, well-referenced, shows why very few here deny he used PEDs, & over The Long Haul.

Allegations of steroid and HGH use
On February 28, 2007, Holyfield was anonymously linked to Applied Pharmacy Services, a pharmacy in Alabama that was under investigation for supplying athletes with illegal steroids and [url]human growth hormone[/url] (HGH). He denied ever using performance enhancers.[url][49][/url]

Holyfield's name does not appear in the law enforcement documents reviewed. However, a patient by the name of "Evan Fields" caught investigators' attention. "Fields" shares the same birth date as Holyfield, October 19, 1962. The listed address for "Fields" was 794 Evander, Fairfield, Ga. 30213. Holyfield has a very similar address. When the phone number that, according to the documents, was associated with the "Fields" prescription, was dialed, Holyfield answered.[url][50][/url]

On March 10, 2007, Holyfield made a public announcement that he would be pursuing his own investigation into the steroid claims in order to clear his name.[url][51][/url]

Holyfield was again linked to HGH in September 2007, when his name came up following a raid of Signature Pharmacy in Orlando, Florida.[url][52][/url] Signature Pharmacy was under investigation for illegally supplying several professional athletes with steroids and HGH.[url][53][/url]

 

Bowe was far worse also and out of shape. Holys a favourite of mine, but Bowe was to big and complete when serious for Evander both at their best, just one was 100x more professional than the other and maximised their talent !

 

No chance. He needed that extra weight badly to even think about getting in with Bowe Tyson Lewis etc..Theres no sub 200lb fighter ever that can get in with them 3 and put a showing on like he did. The wearing out would be all Holyfield

 

very similar address? If he put an address on there, wouldn't it go to the wrong address and he not get it? The thing is Evander had a lot of money. He could have had the PEDs shipped anywhere in the country and gotten the PEDs anyway, and not had to play this Evan Fields nonsense.. Maybe someone was trying to frame Evander and put his address in there and his number so he answered? Doesn't it seem a little too easy?

 

Just not true, on early pics it's clear to see Tyson wasn't obese as a youngster. No way on earth he would only put that small amount of weight on in 4 years.

You think balding is good evidence of steroid abuse, what rubbish. I went bald overnight and never touched a steroid in my life.

 

Did you read Entaowed's comment at all? Your rebuttal bears very little relation to what he actually wrote.

 

As much as I like Tyson even in his prime Holyfield would’ve still made him quit, since a past prime Tillis pushed a prime Tyson to his limit and Tillis on his best day is no Holyfield.

As far as Bowe Holyfield ignored instructions and tried to fight Bowe head on and obviously he lost. No amount of extra weight was ever going to allow Holyfield to match firepower with Bowe. In the rematch Holyfield used his superior agility and hand speed to tag Bowe and avoid Bowe’s shots to get the decision, but he struggled due to the extra weight he was carrying, since he was slow as molasses compared to when he was around 200 lbs.

Lewis as talented as he was shamelessly ducked Byrd.

Holyfield's strengths included his workrate, agility, and gas tank, which he pretty much sacrificed in order to put on size.

This statement is laughable.

 

I suppose you did......

 

I did. Come on dude, you straw-manned the hell out of the guy.

 

Nope, 190-200lb holy is way to light to beat them, he needed to eat Peds to bulk up and compete, pretty obvious he needed too, or why bother ????