Without PED would Evander Holyfield have been as successul in the heavyweight division as was?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mark ant, Jan 28, 2019.



  1. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Show me proof of any failed tests by Holyfield.
     
  2. Birmingham

    Birmingham Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    You serious ???? He is the poster boy for PED abuse, and he would be busted every 5 minutes if he fought now, juiced to the gills Evan Fields..That aside, he's a fav of mine, and I think most use now
     
  3. Birmingham

    Birmingham Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    This means F all..Smoking Bert nearly stopped Holy so Tyson destroys him doesn't he..The logic in comparing like that is flawed to F
     
  4. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    But and it's a big but, Holyfield did stop Tyson in real life.
     
  5. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yeah OK just like the PED poster boy of today hasn't been?
     
  6. Birmingham

    Birmingham Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Correct, he wasn't 190-200lb though, he was pumped up nearly 2 stone from his cruiser days by the time he met Tyson, and not a pick of fat on him. I have Holy top 5 ever at heavy believe it or not or a definite top 10 if I really think about it, but there's common sense you have to use at times as well as proof, I think realistically its obvious with his change in physique, weight gain and the "Evan Fields" situation is pretty much pointing in that direction.
     
  7. Birmingham

    Birmingham Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    No your right, it would be masked by other stuff so he would past test after test but it be obvious, just like Joshua :D
     
  8. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He went on a bulking program, remember that other fighter called Michael Spinks. Well he was the former LHW champion and became HW champion, was he a PED abuser too?
     
  9. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Lennox Lewis was 16st 2lbs vs Razor Ruddock but 18st 4lbs against Klitschko

    PEDS?
     
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  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    This is a good response to the points I made. I think that there is compelling evidence on both sides. I think we are both saying things that are reasonable. I think the sport would have changed without drugs for the reasons you used (bigger gloves, shorter rounds, weight training, holding) but not to the extent where fighters would chose to carry more weight into the ring than they walk the streets with, but again, it’s my opinion and for as many points I can make to support this I will accept a case could be made against this too. Albeit Less convincingly in my view. Same as we can quibble over the percentage of drug use but we can’t quibble over its influence or that so much is going on that could never happen before.
     
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    How old is Tyson in these pictures as a youngster? There’s a photo of him on an exercise bike as a kid but it’s diffcult to say how tall or lean he is since he is sitting down. I want to see 11 year old mike standing up next to somebody that can show he is tall enough to be this 190-200 pound freak child. All the impressive photos of him as a youngster are after he was 16 years old.
     
  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    That's some shallow reasoning right there. Tillis was a big step up in experience for Tyson and he stepped up to the plate proudly. Tho he beat Berbick at the end of the same year Tyson improved immensely in the 8 fights he had in that crazy short period of time. Tillis played a huge part of this upward trajectory and so did Mitch Green.

    Joe Louis had immense trouble with Billy Conn at his peak. Larry Holmes went life and death with Weaver and was dropped by Snipes. Holyfield had big trouble with Michael Moorer. A still improving Bowe had a similar struggle with Tony Tubbs. Rocky Marciano had his struggles too. You can play the shallow game with most any of them.
     
  13. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    All this talk of Tyson being such and such weight at this and that age is pure conjecture. Let's deal with facts here, Tyson at 17 weighed less than 200lb and in around a year he put on around 20lb. Now you know where I'm going here, those vitamins must have been mighty strong in the Catskills.......
     
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  14. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Nah, because it was clearly for internal records & never expected to be exposed.
    Not that it literally would be shipped to a fake address. Who would have framed him, & would Federal authorities lie about him answering the phone at the listed number? If it was a deeply improbable personal framing, son;t you think Holyfield would have screamed to the High Heavens?

    Then there is the HGH incident/evidence.
     
  15. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Well Wass, the guy who just said your comments were not very responsive to what I wrote is correct.

    But as to the little that you addressed in some fashion...I did not say he was obese.
    Have you not seen guys that reach near there adult size very young? I have.
    As for the specifics of body fat: it has been shown convincingly that he was ~ -10% body fat when in his 214-221 lb. prime.
    You could not deny how he looked "shredded" such as in the abs & lower back in some fights.
    Not 5% or less like a competitive bodybuilder, but cut nontheless.

    If he was say 20% body fat as a very young guy, ~ 13...that would not be anywhere near fat. Just a bit over what is called ideal.
    Now if we use the higher figure 10%, that also 10% loss in body fat means...20 lbs.
    Add the 4 lbs., that is a LOT of muscle added in several years.


    I *never* said balding was good evidence of steroid use.
    I said some went bald young due to PEDs. I explictly said that for Evender, that AND the other physical changes & problems would not be enough to say definitively that he used PEDs. But we have the other damning investigatory evidemce.

    Going bald overnight? Or anything similar, as within a couple of months?
    I have never heard of that as ocurring absent a physical problem.