Kellerman Says Pac Is Top 10 ATG; Ranks Higher Than Floyd...

They're the two best fighters of the last 20 years so I'd expect there to be people with that opinion.

 

20 years? No. Pacman is, but not Floyd. I give guys like Oscar and Shane and Roy Jones more credit, and Lennox. Guys who really fought. Floyd handpicked. No matter what.

 

He handpicked but so did Arum for Pac to a certain extent. Guzman was definitely avoided and Floyd fight was marinated, thanks in part to Floyd of course.

All fighters have done some handpicking, except perhaps someone like Ali or SRR, old timers.

Many accuse SRL of waiting until Hagler was past it for example which he pretty much admitted to. Then again, he had no obligation to fight the MW champ at any point.

Floyd has odlh, Hatton, Canelo, cotto, jmm and Pac on his resume. Those are serious names. I don’t rate Castillo and coralles, very good fighters but not HOF or atg’s in my mind. Perhaps hof for other reasons but not in terms of skills.

He fought a green Canelo but that wasn’t his fault, it made sense at the time. He waited to fight Cotto but Cotto was still good enough to be competitive with him and Canelo and beat Martinez. He dragged up JMM and cheated him on scales but it was still JMM, stylistically he would beat JMM every day of the week. jMm struggles against boxers and lost to far lesser fighters like Chris John, Norwood and Bradley.

 

Neither of them are top 10. Top 30, maybe. Or even top 25 if you really try, and remove some of the HW ATGs.

But yes, in a decade or so, the world will look kinder to Pac, simply because his resume will never be replicated ever again, 8 weight division champ, 5 lineal titles, and still being relevant at 40 is sick.
For instance, we may discredit it right now, but when people read Pac's resume in the future, they'd go "WOW. At 40, this man beat a young, 4 weight division champion in Broner."
Floyd's main bargaining chip (his "0") has been done before by Marciano and Calzaghe.

 

I'd have Pacquiao in or around the lower reaches of my top twenty, but I'd have Floyd probably getting just inside my top ten. Fine margins on the whole, but I can't formulate a way to have him higher than Mayweather.

I think the post above, downplaying Mayweather's '0' in terms of comparing it to Marciano or Calzaghe, is disingenuous. Yes, some of Mayweather's allure does rest upon having that '0', and he's always played on that in terms of selling himself. But most boxing fans, particularly those who have an interest in the history of the sport, are smart enough to realise that Mayweather's resume would pi*s all over Marciano's or Calzaghe's even if he'd dropped a decision or two somewhere along the line (such as Castillo I). Those guys NEED that '0' to even be in the discussion for boxing immortality (which Calzaghe should be nowhere near, but that's by the by), whereas Mayweather doesn't. He faced more quality opposition, showed more virtuosity and talent, dealt with a wider variety of styles etc. than both of them put together and then doubled.

There are holes in Mayweather's record. I'll never forgive him for robbing us of the chance to see him against Pacquiao in 2010/11, at a time when boxing really needed something as special as that and at a time when a win for either man would have been as genuinely significant in terms of proving all-time greatness as Leonard's win over Hearns or Ali's over Foreman. I couldn't care less about what the PPV numbers, purse figures or trending on Twitter said - by 2015, Pacquiao-Mayweather was not deserving of superfight status and didn't mean even a quarter as much as it would have done for the winner a few years earlier.

But the fact is, Mayweather won his first world title in 1998 at 130 lb, and was still putting on exemplary, dominant performances against good, world-level fighters at 147 / 154 lb sixteen, seventeen years later, with nobody having ever beaten him. That's remarkable, whichever way you slice it.

Pacquiao's been remarkable, too, and given the stunning nature of his victories his demolition jobs of Barrera (I) and Cotto are perhaps better than any single entry on Mayweather's ledger. But at the same time, peak Pacquiao lost to Morales and was damn lucky to end up 2-1-1 against Marquez (I can give him a pass for anything pre-2000). And while the Mayweather loss isn't a hammer blow to his legacy, even Manny's biggest fans must have watched that with a certain degree of discomfort, knowing that the simplicity with which Mayweather handled him lends serious credence to the idea that Floyd, in terms of style, would always have proved a puzzle which Pacquiao just wouldn't have been able to conquer.

Mayweather has just always been the better, more complete fighter for my money. I also think that Manny's unbelievable streak from 2006-10 clouds the judgement somewhat in terms of in-ring achievements and records. Even if we do take Manny's wins over Barrera (I know the first one was in 2003, but you get my drift) and Cotto as better than anything Mayweather has individually, I still think overall that Mayweather has more high-class wins on his ledger - they were just spread out over a much longer period than Manny's, which contributes to the idea of Mayweather being the cherry picker out of the pair. And he was just the more infallible, dominant performer in my eyes.

Two legitimate legends, but Floyd comes out on top, for me.

 

Celestone=WADA banned steroid

 

If you think AlI and Leonard didn't do any handpicking, you're unfamiliar with history.

 

the fact that you call out Floyd as a handpicker and not mention Oscar as one when literally every single fight of Oscar's career post Arum/Promotions Oscar personally handpicked means your opinion is highly suspect. There has never been a bigger handpicker than Oscar, hell he even "handpicked" Floyd!!! He personally made Floyd a draw.

I've got time today so let's look at the Floyd handpick allegation:

Pre-Oscar and Post Castillo: Floyd fought Sosa and Philip N'dou, (Floyd was still under Arum at the time and had no real control over who he fought), He then moved up to JWW and fought Chop Chop (a former champion) then Bruseles (trained by Cotto's uncle and an obvious test for Floyd and his team to get familiar with that style so yes this was a handpick, but again, by Arum not Floyd). Floyd then faced Gatti, (a fight Gatti himself called for not Floyd). After Gatti, Floyd moved up again and fought Sharmba Mitchell (who before the Kostya rematch everyone gave him a decent shot at beating Floyd) and Zab (another fight much of the public wanted). He then fought Baldomir (how is the actual champion of the division a handpicked fight?). Every fight mentioned pre-Oscar was Arum's matchmaking not Floyd.

Floyd then went on to fight Oscar (Oscar handpicked Floyd), then Ricky Hatton (the champion in the lower division that many said Floyd had avoided). Floyd then retired and came back against Marquez (a measuring stick fight to see how he matched up against Pac's greatest adversary and one of the best counter punchers and Mexican fighters in history.), then Shane Mosley (who many claim Floyd had avoided and just prior to that had demolished Margarito who many claimed Floyd was afraid of). He then fought Victor Ortiz (another champion coming off his biggest win), then went up in weight again and fought Cotto (again someone many claimed he had avoided). Robert Guerrero I believe was a cherry pick. Saul Alvarez wasn't a cherry pick as Oscar was instrumental in making that fight happen. Maidana I can say was a cherry pick (nearly a disastrous one) in the first fight (Floyd should've fought Keith Thurman), the second fight though was a legacy fight. He then fought Manny (The entire world wanted this fight), he then fought Berto (the biggest cherry pick of his career). So the line that Floyd consistently hand picked guys is BS.

He hand picked no one at all pre Oscar (Arum controlled his career and that is well known).
After he had control of his career he handpicked Maidana, Guerrero and Berto. 49 "real" fights and 3 handpicks.

The second part of your post I more or less agree, I do personally rank Oscar (because he handpicked some fabulous fights), Roy and Lennox higher than Floyd. Shane isn't higher than Floyd in any way shape or form though.

 

Just waiting for your OCD ass to admit that Celestone is a Wada banned corticoSTEROID.

Floyd had an exemption for salt water. Manny “I don’t know what a steroid is” Pacquiao had an exemption for a steroid that allows inhuman recovery during training.

 

So far the best attempt to defeat Kellermans argument was Pac cut a lot 9f weight to make the lower weights.

That's the single best attempt in this thread so far. I think it's safe to say Kellerman won the debate.

 

Some people rank Sonny Liston above Wladimir, Holyfield, Dempsey, etc. Difference of opinion is real.

Not sure how you could debate Oscar, Shane, or Roy above him but I don't even want to get into that.

 

"Floyd is the less beatable fighter by other contemporaries in their era."

/done.