I am serious. Study the Tua fight. Neither man hurt the other. For all those punches landed there was zero facial damage because in their fight Tua and Ike were unable to connect with their best leverage. It was an entertaining match between youngsters. So evenly matched they nullified each other. Quality was sacrificed for quantity. Ike said as much in an interview. He said he wished he sat down more on his punches and took his time.
I'd hardly be bandying around Cooney's win over Lyle given Lynn Ball ko'd him in under 2 rounds prior. Ball was SHOT. Norton was in his last ever fight. Frazier's credentials were very thin, i hope one of the modernists takes you on with that one.
Both Norton and Lyle were shot but it dosnt matter because Cooney took care of business and these wins gave him exposure. Jimmy Young was a cagey veteran when he met Cooney and in shape for their fight. In fact young troubled a great many future stars a trifle more than he could Gerry Cooney. These three wins were seen as spectacular at the time as anything Ike Ibeabuchi had done before his career was halted.
Anyone with a brain and no agenda even at the time could see the wins for what they were. Many called him and his camp out on it. It matters that they were shot when these wins are being held up as more credible than Ike over Tua and Byrd. Ike would have walked thru these two at this point in time. It always matters if an opponent is shot. Young was his best win. He too was on the way down but put forth a decent effort and gave Cooney a bit of trouble. He was stopped on cuts.
This is a difficult one simply because we don't really know what Ibeabuchi would have become. It's difficult to commit fully to him in match ups against ATG's. He obviously showed a great durability and a good consistent output against Tua and great heart. I would suggest though that he may find Frazier who is probably the greatest heavyweight swarmer of all time a different proposition. On that score Tua is no Frazier and Ike stylewise is no Foreman. Ike might have a chance early on but I tend to think Frazier gets his head on Ike's chest pretty early on nullifies Ike's leverage and pounds his way to a decision.
Styles make fights. Byrd was a slick lefty. Cooney relied a lot on his left hook which generally not the weapon of choice for against a southpaw. I've watched both fight, seen Cooney vs Holmes, Spinks, Norton and Foreman. I think Cooney is just a bit too slow to catch up to Byrd. Byrd would give Holmes a good fight at his peak possibly even turn the same trick Spinks did. Larry wouldn't have an easy time landing the jab consistently on Byrd.
Ahh the God like thunder of David Tua’s power. The same God like thunder that mysteriously dissipated whenever he fought someone who wasn’t green, washed up or plain sh1t. And you have the gall to criticise others for telling fairy tales about what their ATG’s can do. David Tua’s whole myth is built on one or two facts and 1000 exaggerations (him being in any way comparable to Joe Frazier being a prime exaggeration) . And Ike is the only person who is mythologised more than Tua on here because he beat Tua’s overrated arse. Hasim Rahman more or less stood up to prime Tua’s punches (excepting when Tua hit him blatantly after the bell). Was his chin made out of reinforced steel too? Or was Tua’s power less than awesome against genuine world class fighters? I know what my moneys on.
I believe Tua had top end power in his left hook.I think he hit harder than Frazier with it. I also think Tua hit appreciably harder than Bonavena who had Frazier on the floor twice. How many world class prime opponents did Earnie Shavers ko? Ditto Mac Foster,Razor Ruddock,Cleveland Williams,Ron Lyle. Is their power overated too?
absolutely. They were on the slide. Tua and Byrd on their way up. I get that. I’m just saying would Ike do much better against Young, Lyle and Norton? We have no guide that Ike was going to be better than Cooney on the strength of those wins over a Tua and Byrd do we? He didn’t fight anyone better than Byrd who was not elite at the time. Nor was Tua. Nor was Norton, young and Lyle. Same same. perhaps Ike would have walked through Lyle and Norton just as easily. And if he had Ike would have been regarded Cooneys equal. This is my point. If Cooneys career halted right at that moment, he would be everything folks say Ike was or could have been. We don’t know what Ike could have been. We never found out. Just like we wouldn’t have found out about Gerry if he finished then. Can you imagine how folks would rave about what Cooney might have been? I agree with this. If Ike beat Young as impressively it would be a feather in his cap too. It’s similar to Ikes Byrd win overall.
They could all punch hard but being able to punch hard against better fighters dosnt mean they hit even harder. It just means they had the talent to land bombs on better fighters. Joe Louis landed his bombs on the best fighters. Tyson too. Foreman. Etc etc. They are proven. To that extent Ike was not. To that extent Tua was not otherwise he would have knocked out Lennox Lewis.
I don't think how ever Tua hit harder than Foreman. Who hit hard enough to drop Joe every time he touched him, but couldn't quite put him out. A bigger question is can Tua commit to throwing and landing his uppercut.
Tua ko'd 3 men who held versions of the title,it's not like he only stopped nobodies. Not stopping Lewis doesn't signify anything. Bruno,Ruddock,Mercer,Vitali,Morrison didn't stop him either, in fact none of them even floored him ! So yours is a silly analogy.
That's actually mostly fair. What needs to be put out there tho is that Ike beat two established genuine top 10 fighters and this is actually more than Cooney got done. You and Janitor are massive on such feats when comparing vastly different era's so you should be consistent and readily accept this point. I pick Frazier and am not even claiming Ike is/was better than Cooney. I'm not claiming he wasn't either. It's an open debate.
I know, but Frazier bobbing defense made hooks unreliable. He got under them easy. But a heavy uppercut is the main reason George was able to punish that defense so successfully. I think Joe would smoke Tua if it goes to the cards.
