the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

I honestly think the Frazier who beat Ali would have knocked out George. But only that day. Like Tyson, he was generally made to order for big George.

 

See, I like Michael simply because he was such an outier, the ungainly, unheralded, slightly off-center type that resonated more with me than a lot of other guys. I hear ya though.

 

Here is a good reflection from Qawi vs Spinks that was shared on here about a year or so ago, with a ggod take on the value of a trainer and fight plan...and of course execution...link following the excerpt

Futch had made a vivid impression on Newman back when Newman was managing a light-heavyweight champion named Dwight Braxton (later known as Dwight Muhammad Qawi).

"In March 1983, Futch was the trainer for Michael Spinks when Spinks and Dwight fought a light-heavyweight unification bout," said Newman. "That was as close as I've ever come to seeing a strategy do as much to beat a fighter as the fighter himself."

Futch's plan for that bout was simple.

Braxton had a habit of baiting a foe into throwing the right hand by dropping his left hand. "As the man threw the right," Futch explained, "Braxton would roll and take the right on his shoulder and fire back with his right. He did that real well."

Not against Spinks. As Newman recalled, "I kept waiting for Michael to throw the right."

So did Braxton. But Futch had instructed Spinks to use his left hand -- jab and hook -- and never throw the right until Braxton did. The brawl that the public had anticipated never materialized, as Spinks fought and won a strategic victory.

"And after, everybody said, 'Braxton didn't do much,' " recalled Futch. "But that was because Spinks didn't let him do much."

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/09/...ing-out-in-style-with-bowe-in-his-stable.html

 

Absolutely; he had to show iron discipline that night not to get too involved in using one of his most vaunted weapons. He showed he could really box that night, and use his brain. He showed himself to be multi-faceted in a way that very few ever manage.

All that, just a couple weeks after his common-law wife and mother of his toddler died in an auto accident. Says a huge amount about the man. Enormous respect for the guy.

 

Qawi vs Spinks
I decided to rewatch this after it got brought up here. Oddly I scored it closer than I remember doing in the past. I also think Ray and the commentary did a mediocre job and the fact that they kept saying the official cards were to close 2 x 3 pts 1 by 4. I actually think they did a good job and this could be a 1-5 pt Spinks win..:a draw and 5 pts would be hard to explain 2-4 seems just about right.

I felt Spinks clearly won and have him winning clear rounds 4-1.
Spinks 6-7-12-15
Qawi 8 (10-8 unfortunately as that should not have been ruled a KD)

The other 10 rounds were close and could be scored a variety of ways. I judge had 0 even rounds where the other 2 judges did. I did not score any even but 1-5-11 all could be scored that way, very close.

RBR
1 Spinks
2 Qawi
3 Spinks
4 Spinks
5 Qawi (Spinks 48-47)
6 Spinks
7 Spinks
8 Qawi 10-8
9 Spinks
10 Qawi (Spinks 95-94)
11 Spinks
12 Spinks
13 Qawi
14 Qawi
15 Spinks (Spinks 143-141)

Qawi actually performed well, but Spinks limited his opportunities to land a good right and dictated with his jab. Qawi performed good, but Spinks executes slightly better. Hard to knock Qawi for his performance as he does as good as you can against a top 5 ATG LHW IMO

 

Oh, I definitely thought Spinks blew out Qawi...it was certainly a less close decision than Spinks-Holmes I. I was in my teens when I saw that fight, and of course wanted plenty of punching. At the time I was so young and dumb I even got really disappointed and disgusted at the oh-so-sweetly-scientific Hagler-Leonard fight. These days the latter is one of my favorite fights to watch, I score it differently every time.

 

Ahhhh inspired to watch another Qawi fight.

Holyfield vs Qawi I
I never realized that Qawi had a point deducted. Not sure how I have missed that but it is clearly announced at the 50:40 point and evidenced by the official judges cards having 16 scoring points rather than 15

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What a great fun fight.

RBR
1 Holyfield
2 Holyfield
3 Holyfield
4 Qawi
5 Qawi
6 Holyfield
7 Holyfield
8 Holyfield
9 Qawi
10 Qawi
11 Holyfield
11 Holyfield
13 Holyfield 10-8
14 Holyfield
15 Qawi
145-139

Judges had there work cut out for them and I think they are reasonable even the cards that had Qawi by 2 and Holyfield by 9. Quite easy to see 6+ rounds scored different.

I felt Holyfield won 4 rounds clearly!
1-3 & 13 and Qawi round 5

I felt there were 4 close rounds that could arguably be scored either way.
Holyfield 6-7-12
Qawi 15

I had 6 ultra ultra close rounds and scored 3 for each guy (not on purpose lol).
Holyfield 8-11-14
Qawi 4-9-10

With those 6 rounds you can get to Qawi by a point or Evander wide. But the fight is closer than my total score so I am content with this scorecard

 

Roberto Duran vs Ernesto Marcel

Well I have decided to start rewatching some old Duran/Chavez fights and decided to start here. This is a fun fight that is more significant now in light of their careers than it was at the time. The footage I saw was dark grainy and choppy but good enough to see a lot of what happened.

I am not as familiar with Marcel and have only watched a little of him through the years. A nice high guard defense that presented an early puzzle for Duran. A very good left and found success with it in multiple ways, he exploits Duran’s low right and scores consistently with it during the first 4 rounds. Very good hand speed that rivaled (nearly surpassed?) Duran’s own, but he couldn’t match him in terms of volume. Wherher he lacked the stamina to maintain that or if it was just that the punches were having more impact on him I am not sure. Good footwork and ring movement, that left Duran to pursue him for the most part. He was able to use Duran’s aggression against him and catch him off balance a number of times early and still a few times add the fight progressed. Can’t tell if his power was lacking or if it was just Duran’s chin and toughness that it did not seem to affect or deter Duran in any way.

Duran is not the complete package he will become, nor should he be expected to be at 19. But you see the flashes. His aggression is very methodical patient and controlled, as he stalks and continues to cut the ring off. He lunged a little wildly and allows himself to be caught and countered by Marcel’s left more than he would like. The punches look more effective due to his balance and foot placement, than because he was hurt or caught really good. Or it looked more effective than it was in reality. Duran has solid hand speed and the volume of punches he as able to throw and land soon distance him and Marcel. Early on he has a nice jab but does not use it enough, and in some cases it looks like it was thrown just to close the distance rather than score. Inside fighting he is solid but it looks like Marcel takes the infighting exchanges during the first 4 rounds. But even young Roberto has great stamina and that and his punching volume shift the fight in the 5th where Duran is not seriously challenged the rest of the way. The only negatives I see are foot placement, his low right exposing him to numerous left hands, balance/focus and under utilizing his jab early. He would control good portions of the fight midway on from midrange with his jab that was sharp and crisp and took advantage of Marcel’s slowed workrate.

Good fight and good time watching the beginnings of a legend or two.

RBR
1 Marcel
2 Duran
3 Marcel
4 Marcel
5 Duran
6 Duran
7 Duran
8 Duran
9 Duran

Ref waves it off in the 10th.

Edit: I should have noted Roberto’s solid body attack. Primarily from round 5-10. He finds an exposed part on Marcel’s rib cage just under and behind his left elbow. He continues find a home there with a right hook to the body, causing Marcel to lower his guard more and more frequently. He does a great job at working up high as Marcel lowers his guard and back to working the body when it goes back up. Excellent punch variety shown by both guys but much more so Roberto as the fight progressed

 

Julio Cesar Chavez vs Mario Martinez

Wow! What a fight I had forgotten how much fun this was. Definitely FOTY worthy and rounds 2-5-7 are awesome with 7 being ROTY worthy imo.

I have seen some Martinez and know that he had just come off of s great performance blasting out Rolando Navarette. It’s easy to forget that he was only 19, although not a novice by any stretch this is probably slightly pre prime or at least in the early stages of it. JCC is 22 and a veteran of 42 or 44 fights it seems hard to keep track lol. The fact that he stops Martinez in 8, speaks volumes when you consider he lasted 12 with Fenech and 23 1/2 with Azumah Nelson.

Martinez- does not exhibit much in the way of defense and seems focused on jabbing and moving early. But before long he digs into an offensive slug fest, throwing loads of punches but again his defenses is porous. He has very good hand speed and that seems to trouble Chavez early and keep the fight even through 4 rounds. But from the 5th on while still flashing good speed, nice combos he is getting the worst of it nearly on every exchange especially in terms of harder punches. His stamina wanes and by 7 he looks like he has been through a war. His punches are slow and no snap on them, his legs have slowed and he is taking way to many punches. Chavez on the other hand looks like he just came out of the dressing room.

Chavez is on the cusp of his prime on the world stage for the first time and at 22 looks ready and seasoned for this moment. He looks great and shows a lot of stylistic variety. Martinez seems to give him difficulty early with his hand speed but Chavez adapts well, and begins timing him in round 2. Although Martinez has the hand speed advantage, Chavez showcases some brilliant timing and impeccable placement. His accuracy is incredible and he seems to not have any wasted movement. He starts slow (as he usually seems to) and while he land the 2-3 best shots of round 1 he does not seem to throw enough and looks to just be working up a sweat, figuring out space/power/speed of Martinez and seems content to let Martinez nip the round behind his jab. In rounds 2-5-7 Chavez allows Martinez to take him to the ropes, and JCC shows some brilliant back to the rope fighting. Conserving his legs again his ability to not waste energy or movement anymore than necessary. He wins these exchanges as Martinez lets it fly. However Martinez in his exuberance opens himself up to Chavez’s infighting body work and upper cuts time and again coming out on the short end of the exchanges. Chavez reminds me of Nelson, Tony Lopez, Jorge Castro and Galindez as fighting with his back to the ropes us a strategy to employ leverage and power in taking the infight to your opponent. Martinez bites, but Chavez is winning these exchanges. Chavez uses some sharp uppercuts over and over again from both hands. The one deficiency he seems to have outside of hand and foot speed is defense. He has solid defense and head movement but seems overly willing to open himself up to Martinez trusting his chin (or maybe just respecting Martinez’s power?) . He takes more punches than seems necessary or than I would want him to, but he is clearly winning those exchanges. He switches back and forth from boxer/puncher/stalker to baiting Martinez to drive him to the ropes. He does well in both cases but his best work is with his back to the ropes.

Awesome fight to watch if you have not seen it.

RBR
1 Martinez
2 JCC
3 JCC
4 Martinez
5 JCC
6 JCC
7 JCC
8 JCC

JCC 78- 74
Paul Thomas waves the fight off as Martinez makes his way back to the corner. Perhaps premature, but the way he looked after 7 I was expecting a stoppage in round 8. Martinez showed flashes and a warrior heart. Well worth watching

 

Julio Cesar Chavez vs Ruben Castillo

A fun fight, not as good as the Martinez fight. It has been a while since I have watched Castillo and might take a break from JCC and Duran to rescore and rewatch Castillo vs Sanchez. I was not aware that Castillo felt he was robbed in that fight so my curiosity has been peaked.

Castillo starts cautiously but throws more than Chavez early. It looks like he does not want to fight in close and tries to keep it at range.But from midrange Chavez lands some nice jabs, starting slow but throwing slightly more than he did in the first vs Martinez. Castillo nips the first largely based on being more active. It seems Chavez is content with just feeling out the range power and speed in the first as it seems consistent with most of his fights. By the 2nd JCC is initiating the fight and landing good and accurate, while he seems more focused on his defense this fight. Outside of rd 3 his head movement and slipping and blocking punches is top notch. He is also timing Castillo and countering more successfully as well as setting the pace. He uses his jab controlling the fight from mid range, which is something he did not use slot vs Martinez. In the 4th Martinez is getting beat up and sustains a bad cut above his eye. He goes to the ropes and wins a nice back to the ropes exchange to close the round. 5th and 6th are largely JCC and Castillo’s eye is bothering him. By mid 6 it is all JCC teeing off with Castillo throwing but mostly in a get this guy off of me fashion. Finally Castillo goes down and Padilla waves the fight off. Good fight and looks like JCC has hit his prime

RBR
1 Castillo
2 Chavez
3 Castillo
4 Chavez
5 Chavez
6 Chavez

All over

 

Salvador Sanchez vs Ruben Castillo

Excellent fight, with lots of ebbs and flows, tempo and momentum shifts....Corsell is dreadful in his boxing knowledge but good at hyping a fight. He is not always aware or accurate but is seldom waning in excitement or cliches...I don’t think either guy was hurt as he began declaring they were lol.

Sanchez is the iceman so cool calm and collected his poise is incredible. I picked this fight because I watched an interview with Castillo and Chavez (cool to see they remained good friends after they fought) where Castillo said he was robbed in this fight. I didn’t remember that but it had been a few years since I had seen it. I think it would be hard to make a case for that, or even a draw upon a rewatch. Even giving him the benefit in close rounds he would still lose on my card 8-7.

Lots of action and momentum shifts. No round was really won widely by either guy, but still fairly easy to score imo except for 3 tight rounds.

Castillo looks much better at FW than he did at SFW against Arguello prior to this or against Laporte and JCC following this. I wander if he could have gotten a strap if he had stuck around FW for longer?

Castillo controls the first 3 rounds behind his jab and quicker hand speed, Sanchez struggles till midway through the 3rd getting his timing and the range down. The 3rd is close but I felt like Sanchez came on to late to take it. From the 4th to the 8th Sanchez is in range and timing well countering the quicker Castillo and his jab. In the 5th and 6th Castillo moves better like he was during the first 3 rounds and makes these close. Round 6 I couldn’t seperate the guys and scored a draw, but Sanchez has shifted the fight and evened it up after 8. Castillo fights a brilliant 9th round and wins thevrcchanges in his preferred range jabbing and utilizing his hand speed. From this point it is largely Sanchez winning exchanges and outside of the 13th and a semi close 15th it is Sanchez dictating the fight.

I can’t say enough about sanchez’s Poise. His demeanor does not change regardless of whether he wins an exchange or not. He is unflappable. While not what I would call a great defensive fighter he is hard to catch clean, and again his chin and calm would never show that anything got to him.

RBR
1 Castillo
2 Castillo
3 Castillo
4 Sanchez
5 Sanchez (Castillo 58-57)
6 Even
7 Sanchez
8 Sanchez
9 Castillo
10 Sanchez (Sanchez 96-95)
11 Sanchez
12 Sanchez
13 Castillo
14 Sanchez
15 Sanchez (145-141)

Sanchez 145-141

Fun fight plenty of technical skill and plenty of fireworks

 

I never understood the stoppage. The ref seemed to stop it for no obvious reason. It wasn't that Marcel was taking a deluge of shots from Duran. Any idea why?

 

No! I didnt understand it either. Don’t speak Spanish, so the commentary does not help.

 

Duran vs DeJesus I

Well, that was even sloppier than I remembered. I don’t want to draw to many conclusions from this as it is among Duran’s worst performances and the outlier rather than the norm. But I don’t want to dismiss them as Esteban deserves major props for his performance and focus.

Duran looked slow this night? I don’t know whether the extra 5 lbs was the cause or lack of training and focus or both, either way Esteban was on his game.

The only areas Duran excelled in was the infighting, where Esteban held his own but Duran Likely edged, and in relation to that Duran worked the body better.

Esteban has better footwork and speed and Duran’s movement was minimal. Even on the times he initiated the infighting (not often enough) he was lethargic. Esteban has the quicker hands and won and outlander in most exchanges. Duran’s punch volume also was very low and Esteban lands harder and more often and dictates the pace. From midrange Duran seems content to fight from this range a lot and Dejesus wins the battle of the jabs by a wide margin and outboxes Duran widely.

I don’t want to read to much into this or draw any major conclusions because Duran would learn from this fight and imo go on to improve. But his balance seemed to be an issue in the Marcel fight and Dejesus had the pop to expose what Marcel could not. Duran was often out of position in both fights and off balance s number of times. Dejesus takes advantage of this in the first with a nice uppercut followed by a nice counter left hook as Duran is slow getting his right back. In the 4th Duran lunges in and again of balance and out of position gets buckled by anothe solid left, and almost went down as he stumbled into Dejesus on the ropes. Again in the 7th Duran back to the ropes (looked bad there the few times Dejesus took him there) Duran off balance takes a left a falls back to the ropes and may have gone down had he not been there....but this was more of s balance issue than being hurt by the punch. He was merely out of position but I looked good nonetheless. His jab was slow lazy and lacked the sharpness and crispness that it had in the 2nd half of the Marcel fight. While Dejesus landed his own regularly. Much like the Marcel fight his right is held low, and he brings it back to slowly when he is getting countered. This opened him up to numerous lefts from Marcel in the first half of their fight and Esteban would exploit this a number of times including but not limited to the 3 I listed above. It will be interesting to rewatch how he evolves as I go through his fights, but there seem to be a couple of reoccurring issues.
To open on defense/slow to get his guard up when getting countered. He is better defensively when focused but he seems to have lapses where he gets lazy about it, neglects it and/or trusts his chin and ability to win exchanges.

Lazy Jab- used it nicely in the 2nd half of the Marcel fight, but has spells where he does not use it enough or merely as a distance closing tool.

Balance footwork positioning- he does a solid job of creating angles both offensively and defensively but allows him self to get caught in unbalanced positions. As well as lunging with his jab or hook to get more power he is in a bad position when he misses

Great performance by Dejesus poor one by Duran. Would be interesting to see what would have happened had there been an extra 5 rounds.I had Duran wining 2 of the last 3 rounds and wonder what would have happened had it been scheduled that length.

RBR
1 Esteban
2 Even
3 Esteban
4 Esteban
5 Duran
6 Esteban
7 Esteban
8 Duran
9 Esteban
10 Duran

Dejesus 6-3-1

At the end of the fight Duran walks to his corner dejectedly

 

Duran was so amazing, such a great fighter. I know, I know, he quit in the 2nd Leonard fight. But Roberto proved his heart time and again in other fights (I always suspected he had to poop real bad in the abovementioned Leonard fight).

Me:

Gaining more regard for Mr. Tyson after watching his peak years. He was about as great as Liston during that time, no more no less...neither had a champion's heart imo.

Also had a humorous time watching Conor McGregor getting slapped silly by Mr. Mayweather.