Rank these attributes in order of their importance to greatness

I'm completely with you. It's a terrible shame George quit after the Jimmy fight though...that said, I just can't see George beating Holmes (especially around that time...it would have been much closer in the 90s), so it was for the best.

 

Oh, to be completely fair to Mike I should mention something that bugged the heck out of me. In a champion's round table (I'm so sorry, as I can't remember which youtube link it is) of Foreman, Ali, Frazier, Norton, and Holmes, Larry opined that Mike wouldn't have beaten any of the boxers in the room in their prime.

Sorry, but as awesome a fighter as Norton was at times, he was tailor made for Mike. It wouldn't have lasted two rounds imo.

Frazier had a bit of a problem with what Larry said as well, and roundly stuck up for Mike.

 

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What weight class? Lightweight, middle or heavy?

I would say management and picking the right fights at the right time has something to do with greatness.

I would also say the above attributes vary depending on the fighters style.

 

To me this encapsulates the most important qualities:

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I guess the main take away is it takes a lot to make a champion as all of the above need to be at least average with *luck, also being the judges.

I'm a little surprised at how low most are rating hand speed. Below average hand speed champions are rare.

 

ALi beat Foreman well before he stepped in the ring that night in Kinshasa. And where he defeated him no heavyweight before or since had that unique ability to do. He beat his mind. Made him fight the dumbest fight possibly in the history of boxing( and this is where the unfounded critic of Foreman's endurance came from) by the time of the Young fight, he was mentally burned out. ( The mental anguish from Kinshasa?) And clearly wasn't the same confident fighter prior to Ali. Thus the 10 yr lay off..... But as I said in the beginning of this only Ali had that ability to get into an opponents head like that. Every other heavyweight would have to deal with the confident Foreman if were talking prime vs prime. And I'd put my money on Foreman against any Heavyweight not named Ali.

 

All time ranking to me is about who they fought and resume. For example. Leonard to me has a great resume for a guy who didn't have many fights. You can surmise how he would do against the top guys in any era from the guys he beat and how he fought-and mainly how he exhibited some of the qualities in this thread.

 

I didn't see the fight when it happened (too young), but when I first heard about it people told me Foreman was throwing amazing bombs and making Ali cover up, that Ali basically came out of nowhere to win. Upon actually seeing the fight I starting laughing in the first round...Ali was in control the whole fight, and Foreman was ready to go at least a round before he did imo. Ali was just a beautiful sight, the ultimate counter puncher (kinda like what Jimmy Young could have been had he had more weight to his punches...uh, and was Ali and stuff lol!)

 

Oh I agree wholeheartedly on your opinion on Leonard. No he didn't have as many fights as let's say a Mayweather Jr. but whom he defeated and when he defeated them far outshines anything Mayweather Jr. Accomplished in my opinion. ( 4 ATG's at or close to the primes of their careers can't be sneezed at, though some try) And it's very easy for me at least to envision Leonard defeating damn near any Welter in history not named R.Robinson. And would give Robinson absolute hell in my opnion. That if he didn't defeat him prime vs prime .

 

What helps Ray in the head to heads is all the guys he beat. He beat a great moving up and fought him on the inside and still almost won, then outboxed him.. He beat a tall fighter with a 78 inch reach and found his way inside, opposed to fighting him inside from the get go. Beat Hagler, - an older Hagler and mentally maneuvered Marvin to sort of fight his fight and give him momentum. And beating Benitez for the titles was unheard of. Beating him on the inside. Stopping him, something Hearns could not although I think Tommy fought Benitez at Benitez best weight, which is a counter to most greats when they move up they diminish. Benitez somehow worked better at 154. Maybe he gained the size naturally to the point where his speed was the same, and yet more pronounced compared to 154 pounders relative to the 147 or 140 pounders. Either way, he fought better at 154.. Experience. Who knows.