Joe Frazier Comeback

Well I'll be damned, you're absolutely right about that!

 

To be fair Ali was never going to retire after Zaire. It was one of the greatest victories ever and he was back on top of the world. He fought brilliantly that night. After the Thrilla in Manila would have been nice i think.

 

Not a chance!

 

I never heard of Joe Frazier and Earnie Shavers almost fighting in 1977 (down to the purse figures). And I never even heard of a heavyweight from the 1970s named Johnny Dupree.

I don't know where that info came from. Care to share where you heard that from?

Joe Frazier AND George Foreman both said they were going to come back after Leon Spinks upset Ali. Foreman didn't.

And Frazier did train for a couple of fights in South Africa against Kallie Knoetze and Gerrie Coetzee.

A few weeks after Spinks beat Ali, it was announced Frazier was going to fight Coetzee in South Africa, but the fight was canceled because they didn't receive permission from South Africa authorities who had to approve any fight between a white man and a black man. And they hadn't received approvals (or didn't pay the last minute bribes required).

Then, it was announced Frazier would fight Knoetze in May, but Frazier suffered hepatitis and had to cancel the Knoetze fight.

I think Frazier might have done okay against Knoetze. Kallie was short and pretty immobile.

If he'd fought Coetzee, however, I think Gerrie would've won.

 

It was. There was some quote Ali had when Foreman and Frazier both gave interviews saying they were coming back in 1978 (because they thought they could beat Spinks), where Ali said something to the effect that Foreman wouldn't fight Ali, and Frazier wouldn't fight Foreman, and Norton wouldn't fight Foreman or Frazier, but he (Ali) was the only one who would fight everybody.

He had a point.

 

No. Joe after 1971 got too comfortable and lazy, which is why his in ring performance started badly suffering and by 1976 Joe was a fat slob that would’ve been easy pickings for any of the top contenders.

 

I also think the Ali fight might have been SO intense and dogged (from all perspectives), that Joe kind of lost something during it. It happens sometimes when a fighter makes an extraordinary effort against a seemingly unbeatable opponent. That kind of effort...

as much as I adore the Thrilla, I sometimes wonder if Joe would have been best off simply retiring after beating Ali. I'm confident his place would have risen even more in boxing history had he done so. Ali was considered pretty much unbeatable at the time, and his 60s fights underscore that. Frazier wanted to beat him so bad...he did, but it might have ruined him.

Still, can't take away anything from Frazier during the first Ali. Imo there isn't a heavyweight in history whom could have beaten him that night, his eyes said it all. The perfect, practically unstoppable fighting machine. He took Ali personally, and I think that more than anything won the fight for him.

 

Holmes would have outpointed him.

Let's say, the 60s Frazier against (say) 1980 Holmes...THAT would have been good!

 

A guy with Joe's style has to be committed and dedicated 100%. He had too many ring miles on his odometer.

 

@GAP07 Good call on Shavers - Frazier.

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/smokin-joe-frazier-1978.393370/

 

Joe Frazier weighed 205 1/2 for his first Ali fight in 1971 and weighed 208 in 73 against Bugner. So if you think being 3 pounds heavier makes you lazy then you don't know as much about boxing as you think you do. Frazier turned pro 1965. Look at the weight of the guys he was fighting. Most of these guys would be small cruiserweights by modern standards. By the late 1960's a huge infux of modern sized heavyweights began boxing. By the early 70's you had the 6'3 230 George Foreman ( That is how much he weighed as a 19 year old amateur) 6'3 220 pound Ken Norton, 6'3 220 pound Ron Lyle, 6'5 230 to 270 pound Leroy Jones, 6'6 230 Al Jones, 6'5 230 Chuck Wepner, 6'6 240 - 250 Jack O'Halloran, 6'2 1/2 220 Muhammad Ali, 6'2 220 Mac Foster, 6'4 Joe Bugner, 6'3 220 Henry Clark ect. Should I go on? The point is being 200 pounds or less and being called a heavyweight was pretty much done. So Frazier had to put on weight to fight guys like Foreman. You think if Frazier was a little lighter he would of won?

Frazier's style was punishing. He got hit a lot. The Foreman fight took a lot out of him and he was never the same fighter after that.

 

I agree with your argument, however I replace Foreman's name with Ali. I didn't think Joe looked the same even during the two titular defenses he made after Ali. Something was missing. But I respectfully agree to disagree.

Joe pre-1972 was too great a fighter to get beaten by Shavers imo. He also did have a better chin and, well, heart. The Frazier who beat Ali would have had him in the first round (no way Quarry blasts him out in one round and Frazier doesn't), while the Frazier after that probably would have had a much tougher time...might have even been blown out himself by the 7th or 8th.

 

I don't see what Shavers has to do with my point. George Foreman ruined Frazier. I never mentioned if Frazier at his prime could beat Shavers or not. Also fighting doesn't work that way anyway. Just because Quarry stopped Shavers isn1 doesn't mean Frazier would do it too. Ron Lyle was a much bigger puncher than Quarry and took longer to stop Shavers than Quarry did. Foreman didn't knock down Ali but Henry Cooper did. Styles make fights. Not only that if one fighter knows the other fighter is a huge puncher he will fight him differently from a guy he doesn't think could bang.