Tony Canzoneri vs Alexis Arguello

Arguello was 16 when he turned Pro.

we are all (most people), slight, lean and agile when Pre & Post Pubescent.
it is when we level off, for some late teens, others late 20s even... by the time Arguello was in his 20s, he was every bit a Lightweight and having to lose a few pounds for fights.

Though he WAS a TALL Slender Man Naturally, he was NO Different than any of his contemporaries, They ALL Fought DOWN and had MONTHS to Train & Cut Weight.

your are stating it right about Loads of Fights in the Past, but you are wrong in that, yes they were so active they barely gained weight, that's the Point... Arguello WOULDN'T have started so low in weight to begin with!!!

he would have 'Passed through' FW & LW as a Pubescent 'young' fighter, BUT when he levelled out in his 20s he would have been Every Bit, the Welterweight, because as you say, in the first instance, he would have been too busy to gain much weight.

but Again just like his Contemporaries, he wouldn't be fighting the little men in the Lower weight divisions, the emphasis was always Looking UP for the Higher Prize.

fighters (GENERALLY Speaking), not only weighed in & around their natural weights, they were also in & around 2-3 inches in height of one another.

the Social, Sporting and general psyche of the time just didn't dream of 2 and 3 weights down from what you were. Again, very few Sandy Saddler's then.

 

Funnily enough, the exact same occurred to Canzoneri as a Bantamweight.

 

I'm not quite sure, what you're saying here?

The fighters back then who weighed in at the same weight, would also (generally speaking) be very close in height… because it would be unacceptable if they weren't? So a naturally tall and skinny guy would be forced to fight in a higher division - where he would be meeting opponents closer to his own height? It's the first time I've heard such an argument - if that is what you're trying to say?

 

You do know that fighters drained weight even back then right? And if they had a big bout coming up they would have longer training camps?

 

No!

not saying that at all, I'm saying that WE All do as our peers, every people, every culture and ever age/era...

a Tall Skinny guy that was a toothpick like Saddler, is a rarity in Boxing, generally speaking. Tall lean Guys like Arguello or Monzon by comparison, Lean they maybe, but in the past they would have been fighting in & around their Own Weight, which most of the time wasn't much lighter than their Own Natural weight.

Arguello, wouldn't be looking to be a 130 fighter as a Full Grown Man, he would, Just Like his Peers, been looking to fight at in & around his own weight, which as a Full Grown man, was either side of 140lbs or more.

the Height reality is coincidental, more accurately just physical stature generality - in other words !40lb men were in & around 5'7" for example... so a couple of inches in either direction found people in & around that weight. Today you would see, for example MOST S-MWs would be either side of 6' generally speaking - 200lb men, having 2-4 months to get down to 168.

to Rough Diamond, of course fighters 'cut' weight in the past usually only 6-10 lbs, rarely more than that for Most, but contrary to what your saying, because of their busy schedule's, they 'often' fought at Catch Weights, only Title Fights 'typically' afforded them longer camps.

Busy fighters competing and seeking Paydays had to fight as often as the chance came.

Alexis would have been a Tall Lean Welter cum Middle at Peak anytime up to the 1960s or so.

 

This is your claim, that I responded to in my first post:
"Arguello would NEVER have been a Lightweight in those Era's, same day weigh - in"

To which I replied, that he fought several world title bouts at both feather and junior-lightweight UNDER SAME DAY WEIGH-IN RULES... so why on earth would you say, that he would NEVER be able to make even 135 lbs back in the day? It just doesn't make sense.

And now you claim, that peak Arguello would have been a welter cum middle, anytime up to the 1960s - even though he only a decade later won titles at 126 and 130 pounds??

I don't know, why you keep saying these strange things, or what you're trying to prove. I honestly don't.

 

I guess I'm not making it clear enough ...

I'm simply saying, that fighters in the past were more inclined to fight in & around their own natural weight Full Grown weight...

ALL fighters that start young pass through a lighter division or two, perfectly normal... so I'm saying, in the past, the Full Grown, Walking Weight Arguello would have been the 140lb or so man that he was... he wouldn't have been looking down he would have campaigned at those weights, with sights looking even higher.

is that a bit clearer.

 

Yes, that's a bit clearer. I get what you mean now.

But if a full grown Arguello's walking weight was 140 lbs - why would it be impossible for him to make 135 for an important fight? I still don't get that. I mean, he did that all the time in his own era - so why not in Canzoneri's time?

 

No Time to train down,

and with competing at a heaver weight to start with, as I said, they didn't look to find a niche at a lower weight, No, they always had their sights on the next division UP.

it's just the way it was.

today since at least the 70s it is the complete opposite

 

Tony Canzoneri
height 5′ 4″
reach 65″

Alexis Arguello
height 5′ 10″
reach 72″

Jimmy McLarnin (welterweight)
height 5′ 6″
reach 67″

 

So if Arguello's natural walking weight was 140 lbs, he would be fighting at that weight, or higher - and could never fight at lightweight, as his busy schedule wouldn't give him time to train down to 135 lbs?

Ok, this is where I bow out...

 

140 or more was his weight, probably much more, the novice years are as a teen 'passing' through those lighter weights… not saying he couldn't have made 135 if he's a 140lb man

I'm saying he wouldn't have even being looking in that direction at either side of a 145lb Full Grown man, he's not going to do what no body else did, they didn't look too far down, they looked to compete where they were, it was much easier not having to cut too much weight in such demanding periods.

they didn't look down, they stayed where they were and looked UPward!

 

Canzoneri.
Canzoneri was unlucky to not have a decision over Ross, who was better than Arguello and comparable in style.

 

I stand by my original post in picking Arguello. Canz looks great on film and would have fit into any era and been a Champion. Arguello IMO was just a little better and he takes the W.
On a side note alot of people like to always mention Arguello being slow of foot. Seriously in around 80 pro fights how many times did that effect the outcome? As opposed to saying Morales was prone to brawling. Now how many times did that effect the outcome as opposed to Arguello but u rarely hear it held against him. Just my 2 pennies

 

I'd favor Alexis , but wouldn't bet on it.